Log of Board-meeting 2018-05-18-11:00 UTC

Timestamp all UTC +02:00

18.05.2018 [12:43:00] <Peter> https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2018-05-17
18.05.2018 [13:00:14] <Etienne> Hello Ross, Peter, Dirk
18.05.2018 [13:02:06] <Peter> Hello Etienne
18.05.2018 [13:04:39] <RKrumbholz> Hello etienne and peter
18.05.2018 [13:05:24] <Etienne> This is our agenda: https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2018-05-17
18.05.2018 [13:07:11] <Etienne> It is early in the moring in New York. Should we wait some more minutes for Brian or start, as we have a quorum
18.05.2018 [13:07:41] <RKrumbholz> I don’t mind waiting a little
18.05.2018 [13:11:28] <Etienne> Let's start with the prelimaries until Brian arrives! Who will take the chair until then?
18.05.2018 [13:13:48] <Etienne> does anyone mind if I do it?
18.05.2018 [13:14:15] <Peter> no
18.05.2018 [13:14:31] <RKrumbholz> Go ahead
18.05.2018 [13:14:50] <Etienne> OK, so, I declare this meeting open. We have a quorum.
18.05.2018 [13:15:04] <Etienne> The agenda can be found at https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2018-05-17
18.05.2018 [13:15:22] <Etienne> 1.2. Who is making minutes?
18.05.2018 [13:16:00] <RKrumbholz> I can do it
18.05.2018 [13:16:09] <Etienne> Thank you.
18.05.2018 [13:16:24] <Etienne> 1.3. Do we need a time keeper?
18.05.2018 [13:16:51] <RKrumbholz> I don’t think so
18.05.2018 [13:17:19] <Etienne> 1.4. Minutes from May, 3rd: I wrote them, you did not attend the meeting. I propose to skip this agenda item.
18.05.2018 [13:17:54] <RKrumbholz> I agree
18.05.2018 [13:18:42] <Etienne> 1.5. Chair asks whether cacert-board-private or cacert-board maillist includes any items that need to be disclosed to Members.
18.05.2018 [13:19:41] <bdmc> I deeply apologise, all.  I set my alarm, but, apparently, did not hear it.
18.05.2018 [13:20:26] <RKrumbholz> That’s ok
18.05.2018 [13:20:30] <Etienne> Good morning Brian.
18.05.2018 [13:20:45] <Etienne> We startet some minutes ago with Preliminaries.
18.05.2018 [13:21:04] <Etienne> We are now at 1.5. Chair asks whether cacert-board-private or cacert-board maillist includes any items that need to be disclosed to Members.
18.05.2018 [13:21:20] <Etienne> Salut frederic
18.05.2018 [13:21:28] <bdmc> Thank you.  Shall I continue?
18.05.2018 [13:21:43] <Etienne> bdmc, would you take the chair? (I am chairing at the moment)
18.05.2018 [13:21:47] <bdmc> Greetings Frederic.  Welcome to our merry band.
18.05.2018 [13:21:48] <Etienne> Yes, please.
18.05.2018 [13:22:05] <bdmc> And the response to question 1.5?
18.05.2018 [13:22:09] <frederic> Thank you for your warm welcome
18.05.2018 [13:22:17] <Etienne> RKrumbholz is taking minutes, no time keeper, but we are running....
18.05.2018 [13:22:46] <bdmc> Shall we try for 1.5 hours, as usual?
18.05.2018 [13:22:57] <Etienne> GDPR, ABC and Treasurer are all on the agenda.
18.05.2018 [13:23:18] <Etienne> 1.5 hours sounds good.
18.05.2018 [13:23:23] <bdmc> Yes, I will get my Agenda open.
18.05.2018 [13:23:43] <Etienne> https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2018-05-17
18.05.2018 [13:24:03] <Etienne> We skipped to accept the minutes, as I wrote them and the others did not attend the last meeting.
18.05.2018 [13:25:11] <bdmc> Sounds reasonable.  Hmmm.  I was just looking for 2018-05-18.  I will open that one.
18.05.2018 [13:26:11] <bdmc> OK, we are at item 1.5.  And the answer is?
18.05.2018 [13:26:40] <Etienne> nothing until yet, I think, all is on the agenda.
18.05.2018 [13:27:15] <bdmc> Good enough.
18.05.2018 [13:27:53] <bdmc> Item 1.6.  Action Items.  I see six.  Obviously the Minutes were prepared.  Anything else to report?
18.05.2018 [13:31:52] <bdmc> Pause for a procedural note.  I was in a meeting last night, where it was recommended that if we have an answer for a question, like the one that I just asked, where it will take time to answer, that we immediately answer "Yes," to tell the Chair that there is more to come, and then write the paragraph, or research the question, or whatever we need, to properly answer the question.  At least the "Yes" 
18.05.2018 [13:31:58] <bdmc> tells the Chair, and other members of the meeting, that we have not disappeared.
18.05.2018 [13:32:33] <Etienne> I have nothing to report.
18.05.2018 [13:32:34] <bdmc> Nothing heard, I will continue with section 2, Business.
18.05.2018 [13:32:48] <bdmc> Item 2.1.1
18.05.2018 [13:33:07] <Etienne> I wrote the PO again, but get not answer until today. I will try other channels.
18.05.2018 [13:33:17] <bdmc> OK, that's all that you can do.
18.05.2018 [13:33:34] <bdmc> Item 2.1.2.  Resignations.  I know of one.
18.05.2018 [13:34:16] <Etienne> Yes, GuKKDevel
18.05.2018 [13:34:20] <Etienne> from board
18.05.2018 [13:34:47] <bdmc> Do we need to discuss anything specific, or just accept it, and move on?
18.05.2018 [13:35:24] <frederic> nothing to write
18.05.2018 [13:36:08] <bdmc> I do want to thank Karl-Heinz for his very enthusiastic assistance for the past six months or more, and will welcome anything that you offer to help from now on.  We welcome your participation in future Board Meetings, too.
18.05.2018 [13:36:12] <Etienne> Well, I would like to say thank you to Karl-Heinz for everything he did in this time in the committee
18.05.2018 [13:36:34] <Etienne> and that he wants to continue at CAcert, outside the board.
18.05.2018 [13:36:49] <bdmc> Oh, no question about the latter.
18.05.2018 [13:37:12] <bdmc> ~GuKKDevel: Anything that you would like to say?
18.05.2018 [13:38:25] <bdmc> OK, nothing heard.  Item 2.1.3.  New Members.  Do we have any since Frederic?
18.05.2018 [13:38:46] <Etienne> Probabely no.
18.05.2018 [13:39:05] <bdmc> No applications that any of us know of.
18.05.2018 [13:39:27] <GuKKDevel> sorry was programming and forgot the meeting
18.05.2018 [13:39:44] <GuKKDevel> will there be a motion to accept my resignation ?
18.05.2018 [13:39:49] <bdmc> Understandable.  I get that way, too.
18.05.2018 [13:40:09] <bdmc> Oh, I thought that we just accepted it, reluctantly.  B-)
18.05.2018 [13:40:22] <bdmc> I will certainly make such a motion.
18.05.2018 [13:40:38] <GuKKDevel> please do so
18.05.2018 [13:41:33] <bdmc> I move that we reluctantly accept Karl-Heinz's resignation from that Board of CAcert, Inc. and thank him for his great service to the Committee.
18.05.2018 [13:41:44] <Etienne> second and aye
18.05.2018 [13:41:49] <frederic> indeed
18.05.2018 [13:41:52] <RKrumbholz> Aye
18.05.2018 [13:42:02] <bdmc> ( darn:  that > the )
18.05.2018 [13:42:11] <bdmc> Aye
18.05.2018 [13:42:15] <GuKKDevel> what about treasurer resignation?
18.05.2018 [13:42:48] <bdmc> That came with the resignation of the Board Member who was the Treasurer.
18.05.2018 [13:42:50] <Etienne> That was your role at board. It is included.
18.05.2018 [13:43:10] <GuKKDevel> ok thank you for that
18.05.2018 [13:43:11] <Etienne> Discharge takes place at the AGM.
18.05.2018 [13:43:12] <bdmc> The vote was unanimous.
18.05.2018 [13:43:50] <bdmc> Which brings us to Item 2.1.4.  Dealing with the lack of Treasurer.  Etienne?
18.05.2018 [13:44:07] <Etienne> Statutes 15.4.: In the event of a casual vacancy occurring in the membership of 
18.05.2018 [13:44:07] <Etienne> the committee, the committee may appoint a member of the 
18.05.2018 [13:44:07] <Etienne> association to fill the vacancy and the member so appointed is to 
18.05.2018 [13:44:07] <Etienne> hold office, subject to these rules, until the conclusion of the 
18.05.2018 [13:44:07] <Etienne> annual general meeting next following the date of the 
18.05.2018 [13:44:07] <Etienne> appointment.
18.05.2018 [13:44:47] <bdmc> Did you find a volunteer?
18.05.2018 [13:45:03] <Etienne> So, we can appoint a member of CAcert Inc. Frédéric G., here present, is interested to do so.
18.05.2018 [13:45:26] <frederic> I might
18.05.2018 [13:45:29] <bdmc> Thank you, Frederic for the offer.
18.05.2018 [13:45:57] <GuKKDevel> thanks from me also
18.05.2018 [13:46:00] <frederic> promess not to take the cash and run to the Bahamas
18.05.2018 [13:46:18] <bdmc> I move that we accept and appoint Frederic G. ( we will fill in the name correctly for the minutes ) as interim Treasurer for the Board of CAcert, Inc.
18.05.2018 [13:46:31] <Etienne> second and aye
18.05.2018 [13:46:34] <bdmc> ( I don't think that there is enough for that. )
18.05.2018 [13:46:40] <bdmc> Aye
18.05.2018 [13:46:42] <RKrumbholz> Aye
18.05.2018 [13:46:50] <frederic> Will adjust with Etienne for what to do. I am holding a MBA degree, in case it would be necessary.
18.05.2018 [13:47:00] <bdmc> I hope not!  B-)
18.05.2018 [13:47:12] <Peter> Aye
18.05.2018 [13:47:29] <Etienne> Congratulations, Frédéric, welcome!
18.05.2018 [13:47:29] <bdmc> Biggest thing that I know of, right now, is to send out the Dues reminders.
18.05.2018 [13:47:48] <RKrumbholz> Agreed
18.05.2018 [13:47:57] <frederic> my specialty
18.05.2018 [13:48:07] <bdmc> Once again, the vote is unanimous.
18.05.2018 [13:48:11] <bdmc> Welcome.
18.05.2018 [13:48:53] <bdmc> Item 2.1.5.  The GDPR.  Shall we just combine the sub-items?
18.05.2018 [13:49:44] <Etienne> 1&2 together, why not
18.05.2018 [13:50:07] <Etienne> I am a bit confused by the mails we got from the working group. If I understand well: On one hand, we do not need an Data Protection Officer (DPO), as all the data we keep are needed for the WoT, on the other hand it would be better to have a DPO.
18.05.2018 [13:50:07] <Etienne> So, we have to appoint until 25-05-2018
18.05.2018 [13:50:07] <Etienne> - a DPO, not member of the board OR
18.05.2018 [13:50:07] <Etienne> - a Representative of CAcert Inc., resident in the EU.
18.05.2018 [13:50:07] <Etienne> (maybe we need an other meeting on Thursday, 24-05-2018)
18.05.2018 [13:50:07] <bdmc> Thank you, Karl-Heinz.  Unless you want to continue with that, we should teach one or more of us how to do that.
18.05.2018 [13:50:48] <bdmc> Do we have any candidates, already, or do we need to do a search?
18.05.2018 [13:51:42] <bdmc> Would one of the members of the GDPR Research Team be willing?
18.05.2018 [13:52:13] <Etienne> Unfortunately, Hubert is to busy and will not. From Lambert and Megan, I do not have an answer, neither from the CAcert-list.
18.05.2018 [13:52:42] <Etienne> Megan would only be for some months/years until Brexit in 20??
18.05.2018 [13:53:32] <bdmc> In that case, we should hold a short, one-item, Extraordinary Board Meeting on the 24th, as you suggest.  ( unless we want to make it a bigger meeting )
18.05.2018 [13:53:39] <bdmc> ( who is enyc? )
18.05.2018 [13:54:38] <Etienne> I will ask Lamberet (and Megan) again in a direct mail today. Other ideas?
18.05.2018 [13:54:56] <bdmc> enyc: welcome to our meeting.  Name?
18.05.2018 [13:55:48] <bdmc> Etienne: Would an appeal to cacert-members be useful?
18.05.2018 [13:56:09] <frederic> We have our monthly physical meeting in France next May, 22nd. I put the subject in our agenda. https://www.meetup.com/fr-FR/Paris-certification-de-cles-PGP-et-CAcert/
18.05.2018 [13:56:39] <bdmc> frederic: That sounds good.  Thank you.
18.05.2018 [13:56:42] <Etienne> We can do both.
18.05.2018 [13:56:52] <frederic> of course
18.05.2018 [13:57:03] <Etienne> If finally more than one is interested, they can help each other.
18.05.2018 [13:57:15] <bdmc> OK, let's do those things and plan for a short meeting on the 24th.
18.05.2018 [13:57:29] <bdmc> We do not expect that the job will be very difficult, do we?
18.05.2018 [13:57:57] <Etienne> Furthermore, we need a list with alle data, why needed, processed by whom, etc. And a kind of privacy policy "for dummies".
18.05.2018 [13:58:30] <bdmc> Is that due for a week from today, or can it be done once we have the DRO?
18.05.2018 [13:58:54] <Etienne> We have to answer in 30 days. So if our volunteers, arb, the board, etc. take more time, the DPO has to hurry up us. Could be difficult ;-)
18.05.2018 [13:59:21] <bdmc> I agree.  I have been slow on some of the jobs that I have been working on.
18.05.2018 [13:59:39] <bdmc> More?
18.05.2018 [13:59:57] <Etienne> The "Data protection declaration" should be online on May 25, as we had (from view from Brussels) two years to implement it.
18.05.2018 [14:00:19] <bdmc> A short statement, or a document?
18.05.2018 [14:00:55] <Etienne> I did it "online for free", one was 4 pages, one was 17 pages.
18.05.2018 [14:01:14] <Etienne> I have two serious drafts, both in german. Try to put together.
18.05.2018 [14:02:06] <Etienne> We have to explain, that we have google ads and that G put cookies, what cookies are, g's address to get further information about that, etc. etc. It is crazy.
18.05.2018 [14:02:21] <bdmc> So we should have something for our Special Meeting?
18.05.2018 [14:02:40] <Etienne> How to turn off cookies, what happens then (not all services accessible), ...........
18.05.2018 [14:03:32] <Etienne> Yoou will have a draft with no guarantee. Even lawers that do this job do not give a guarantee, that they get it well.
18.05.2018 [14:04:12] <Etienne> Hubert said, there is no insurance to take, as the fines are up to 20 000 000 €. To big risk to take for them.
18.05.2018 [14:04:32] <bdmc> Completely understood.  I think that if we have "something," that will be a big start.
18.05.2018 [14:04:52] <Etienne> Maybe we should try to move to a pacific island instead to europe...
18.05.2018 [14:04:55] <bdmc> Do the fines take into consideration the size or composition of the organisation?
18.05.2018 [14:05:18] <Etienne> 4% of the annual turn over or 20 Mio, what is the bigger amount.
18.05.2018 [14:05:31] <bdmc> Well, we are already on a pacific island, and want to more, already!
18.05.2018 [14:05:37] <bdmc> Ouch!
18.05.2018 [14:05:44] <bdmc> ( more = move )
18.05.2018 [14:06:21] <bdmc> Moving on to Item 2.2.1.  Bug 1260.  Anybody with comments?
18.05.2018 [14:07:08] <bdmc> ~GuKKDevel: I know that you have been trying to be involved.
18.05.2018 [14:08:46] <bdmc> Nothing?
18.05.2018 [14:09:02] <bdmc> Item 2.2.2.  Bug 1417.  Any comments?
18.05.2018 [14:09:25] <frederic> nothing from us yet
18.05.2018 [14:10:20] <bdmc> Yes, you have "volunteered" to work on the "CAcert For Dummies Project."  Thank you.
18.05.2018 [14:11:13] <bdmc> OK, Item 2.2.3.  Bug 1432.  Any comments, here?
18.05.2018 [14:12:26] <bdmc> Moving on, then.  Item 2.3.1.  The BIG one!
18.05.2018 [14:13:02] <bdmc> After much discussion, both here in Board Meetings and elsewhere, we decided that the European Union proposal was not for us.
18.05.2018 [14:14:02] <bdmc> We have decided to pursue the Australian Linux Organisation's Grant program and I have an ad-hoc committee who will be working on that.
18.05.2018 [14:14:43] <bdmc> However, I have been slow to put together a "starter" proposal for the group to work on.  I WILL do that today.
18.05.2018 [14:15:15] <Etienne> @GuKKDevel: How much money we raised this year?
18.05.2018 [14:15:32] <Etienne> I had the information from SecureU, that they get 210@ in April for us = 247 US$.
18.05.2018 [14:15:43] <Etienne> 210€
18.05.2018 [14:16:19] <bdmc> Etienne: Do I remember the expense being something like 10 times that much?
18.05.2018 [14:17:08] <Etienne> 210€ are donations from one month, expenses from 2000 is per year, isn't it?
18.05.2018 [14:17:45] <bdmc> That was what I thought that I remembered, Yes.
18.05.2018 [14:18:26] <egal> if i may answer: ~70€ per month plus ~450€ per quarter (that's the invoices for hosting/power/bandwidth)
18.05.2018 [14:18:40] <bdmc> That 210 is not every month, just this April, though.
18.05.2018 [14:18:59] <Peter> https://linux.org.au/projects/grants
18.05.2018 [14:19:07] <bdmc> egal: so closer to 3000.
18.05.2018 [14:19:24] <bdmc> ( more?   my adding machine is slow )
18.05.2018 [14:19:38] <Etienne> Exactly bdmc, but it was only secureU. Furthermore other donations with paypal. We should have an overview from each month. Maybe a task for the new treasurer?
18.05.2018 [14:19:57] <bdmc> Yes, Peter, that was what I mentioned at :14.
18.05.2018 [14:20:28] <bdmc> Etienne: Agreed.  We need a record of income and expenses, perhaps at each Board Meeting.
18.05.2018 [14:20:41] <frederic> will do
18.05.2018 [14:21:07] <egal> @etienne being in the CAcert financial team i'm currently in contact to kevin for access to westpac account ...
18.05.2018 [14:21:26] <bdmc> Good.  I know that that has been a problem.
18.05.2018 [14:22:01] <bdmc> Peter: Are you a member?
18.05.2018 [14:22:14] <bdmc> ( linux.org.au )
18.05.2018 [14:23:57] <bdmc> So, aside from the Australian Grants, does anybody else have any thoughts for money sources?
18.05.2018 [14:24:54] <Etienne> @egal: how much times takes it to put the sha256 root? People are asking for that, when we ask for money. Probabely the new root would generate some more donations.
18.05.2018 [14:25:24] <Peter> I spoke at one of their conferences. Have to look up membership.
18.05.2018 [14:25:24] <egal> are we at 4.x? ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:25:31] <Etienne> Who can do this?
18.05.2018 [14:25:40] <Etienne> No, how to get money
18.05.2018 [14:26:15] <bdmc> I suspect that he is saying that there is a technical issue.  We will get back to that.
18.05.2018 [14:26:31] <Etienne> OK
18.05.2018 [14:26:44] <frederic> not idea yet, too early for my first meeting.
18.05.2018 [14:26:44] <bdmc> That was one reason that we started the "CAcert For Dummies Project."
18.05.2018 [14:27:03] <frederic> understood
18.05.2018 [14:27:35] <bdmc> Although we do understand that we need to do it "properly," anyway.
18.05.2018 [14:28:23] <bdmc> So, no contributions from honey sales, t-shirts, coffee mugs?
18.05.2018 [14:29:02] <egal> we did this on events some time ago ...
18.05.2018 [14:29:31] <Etienne> http://cacertshop.spreadshirt.de/
18.05.2018 [14:29:38] <bdmc> Are there any events coming up, and are there any plans for representation?
18.05.2018 [14:29:45] <egal> it was prefinanced ... and with the sales we got the money back (with a surplus ... obviously)
18.05.2018 [14:30:28] <Etienne> coffee mugs: https://shop.spreadshirt.de/cacertshop/-A6260015?size=29
18.05.2018 [14:30:55] <Etienne> https://wiki.cacert.org/Merchandising/Amazon
18.05.2018 [14:31:03] <egal> spreadshirt has nearly no sales ... (from my pov people want to see the clothing etc. before they buy)
18.05.2018 [14:31:17] <Peter> Re Linux.org. Just applied for membership. Will read more about grants after membership approved.
18.05.2018 [14:31:24] <egal> (spreadshirt-shop for CAcert is driven by secure-u)
18.05.2018 [14:31:47] <bdmc> Peter: would you like me to add you to my working group?
18.05.2018 [14:31:51] <Etienne> http://www.booking.com/index.html?aid=346253
18.05.2018 [14:32:07] <bdmc> ( please e-mail me your address, if so )
18.05.2018 [14:32:28] <bdmc> ( actually, IRC private message would be good )
18.05.2018 [14:32:51] <bdmc> I notice that the shop is only German.
18.05.2018 [14:33:04] <bdmc> Google offered to translate, however.
18.05.2018 [14:34:36] <egal> that's why secure-u (and not CAcert) is the contact for this shop ...
18.05.2018 [14:35:40] <bdmc> I like the looks of the products, though.
18.05.2018 [14:35:56] <bdmc> We might see if we can promote them more in the web site.
18.05.2018 [14:36:02] <Etienne> We should have some nice CAcert girls wearing this cloths on conferences......
18.05.2018 [14:36:13] <bdmc> B-)  YES!
18.05.2018 [14:36:37] <egal> etienne sounds like iang on cebit a lot of years ago ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:37:03] <bdmc> I will be working at at conference in about two weeks, so won't be able to do much.  I will see what I can add, though.
18.05.2018 [14:37:14] <bdmc> ( at at = at a )
18.05.2018 [14:37:15] <Etienne> @egal: why do you have only sons, no daugther?
18.05.2018 [14:38:39] <bdmc> Shall I call a close to this, or do we have more on this subject?  ( We are past 1.5 hours. )
18.05.2018 [14:38:42] <egal> ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:38:44] <Etienne> (22 minutes left)
18.05.2018 [14:39:22] <Etienne> bdmc: if you want to close, plese do the keyserver case first
18.05.2018 [14:39:29] <Etienne> please
18.05.2018 [14:39:54] <bdmc> OK, Etienne reminded me that we had missed an item in section 2.1.5.  Yes, I was talking about the money discussion, not the whole meeting.
18.05.2018 [14:40:42] <bdmc> Etienne: Do you want to talk, or shall I ask Dirk?
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> Dirk wrote us: As announced earlier the pgp keyserver CAcert uses has two peers:
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> secure-u and my server(s).
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> On the last secure-u-meeting there was the decision to shut down the
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> secure-u-keyserver until there is a decision about running
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> GPDR-compliant keyservers.
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> The same applies for my own keyservers.
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> Background for these decisions:
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> Currently the risk to run a keyserver is too high as there is no way
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> (currently) to remove keys from the database or prevent keys to be
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> uploaded to/exchanged by the keyservers.
18.05.2018 [14:41:54] <Etienne> Furthermore nobody, who used the keyserver in the past, agreed to the
18.05.2018 [14:41:55] <Etienne> usage of the data (name, email-adress, fingerprint and (maybe) photo or
18.05.2018 [14:41:56] <Etienne> additional data) in any way.
18.05.2018 [14:41:57] <Etienne> There is a discussion on sks-mailinglists currently about GDPR, so I
18.05.2018 [14:41:58] <Etienne> will keep you updated about any progress.
18.05.2018 [14:41:59] <Etienne> Nota bene:
18.05.2018 [14:42:00] <Etienne> Shutting down the keyservers does NOT mean, that they will never return
18.05.2018 [14:42:01] <Etienne> ... as soon as the GDPR-issue is solved (in any way), secure-u and I
18.05.2018 [14:42:02] <Etienne> will start them up again.
18.05.2018 [14:42:03] <Etienne> What is the consequence for CAcert?
18.05.2018 [14:42:04] <Etienne> As there are no remaining peers for the keyserver, it will not get
18.05.2018 [14:42:05] <Etienne> updated with new, changed or revoked keys anymore.
18.05.2018 [14:42:06] <Etienne> CAcert should think about shutting down the keyserver, too ... or to
18.05.2018 [14:42:07] <Etienne> find other peering partners to keep the keyserver-data uptodate.
18.05.2018 [14:42:08] <Etienne> Remark:
18.05.2018 [14:42:09] <Etienne> This has NOTHING to do with the CAcert-Web-Of-Trust-database and the
18.05.2018 [14:42:10] <Etienne> GDPR-working-group etc.
18.05.2018 [14:42:38] <Etienne> So, the question is: continue with unknown risks or suspend the service for some weeks until we know the future better?
18.05.2018 [14:43:07] <bdmc> Is this keyserver active in any way, or can we tell?
18.05.2018 [14:43:58] <egal> from history: the keyserver was installed to verify keys without asking "a unknown" keyserver ...
18.05.2018 [14:44:35] <bdmc> understood
18.05.2018 [14:44:57] <egal> asking a "foreign" keyserver would disclose the fingerprint/... of the key to be signed ...
18.05.2018 [14:45:07] <bdmc> are those keys also elsewhere ( public keyservers )?
18.05.2018 [14:45:46] <egal> correct ... my own, secure-u, CAcert and around 100 more should have the same set of keys ...
18.05.2018 [14:45:48] <bdmc> I thought that that was the point of the PGP system.
18.05.2018 [14:46:20] <egal> at least that's the way sks (syncronizing keyserver) works ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:46:44] <egal> unfortunately this contradicts the GDPR ... ;-(
18.05.2018 [14:46:49] <bdmc> So at this point, we are talking about shutting down the first three, correct? ( yours already, and CAcert as well )
18.05.2018 [14:47:53] <egal> CAcert peers to secure-u and me ... secure-u and my servers to several others
18.05.2018 [14:48:09] <bdmc> Unfortunately there is "shared" data and "private" data, and sometimes we have trouble distinguishing.  B-)
18.05.2018 [14:48:15] <egal> in theory one connection is sufficient, more peers are better ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:48:24] <Etienne> why not outsourcing? I can create an association in the congo and some friends there. They could take over the servers (still in dirk's house). So the EU can try to send them a fine in the middle of the rainforest ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:48:52] <Etienne> Postal service is not working in the congo since 1972, I think.
18.05.2018 [14:48:56] <egal> aeh ... my keyserver is running in singapore ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:49:05] <Etienne> even better, egal
18.05.2018 [14:49:10] <egal> secure-u in NL
18.05.2018 [14:50:29] <Etienne> The Linux User Group from Teke near Aketi may be interested (at least to be in the impressum). Contact: Mrs Moko Polele.
18.05.2018 [14:50:30] <egal> back to my question: shut down the CAcert keyserver (at least for some time) ... or keep it running?
18.05.2018 [14:50:46] <bdmc> Board: would we like a motion to suspend service of the CAcert PGP Keyserver, or will we wait on this?
18.05.2018 [14:51:11] <bdmc> We have the meeting next week on GDPR specifically, where this could be considered, as well.
18.05.2018 [14:51:59] <frederic> agreed. Not enough competencies to vote yet
18.05.2018 [14:52:01] <Etienne> Today would be better, because if we moove it on 24th in the evening, you have just minutes to shout down before 25th
18.05.2018 [14:52:05] <egal> okay ... (btw: even if there are no peers ... adding peers to the server some days/weeks later will bring the server uptodate within some hours)
18.05.2018 [14:52:47] <bdmc> egal: I presume that you would be the one to do the job?  Would next Thursday be agreeable?
18.05.2018 [14:52:58] <egal> hopefully ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [14:53:07] <bdmc> ( Regular Board Meeting time. )
18.05.2018 [14:53:39] <egal> (but even if not, i can stop the keyserver before ... and start it on the next morning ... depending on the decision)
18.05.2018 [14:54:07] <bdmc> OHHH!   Darn.  I will be in a class at that time.  ( until after you all ( except Australia ) want to be in bed )
18.05.2018 [14:54:26] <bdmc> We will work this out.
18.05.2018 [14:54:38] <bdmc> egal: That sounds reasonable.
18.05.2018 [14:55:30] <bdmc> OK, back to our regular programming.
18.05.2018 [14:55:54] <bdmc> Item 2.4.  "Hiring freeze."
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> Arbitrated Background Check is blocked since 2014 -> no new ABC -> no new Access Engineer, System Administrator, Support Engineer, Software Assessor.
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> I know that Arb often reacts sensitively when feeling that someone is
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> trying to talk her into it or influence her.
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> I have no intention of using the motion to order Arb to do anything. But I
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> think that questions can also be raised - and I hope we agree that
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> something needs to be said.
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> The question is: what to ask and above all how to ask.
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> Enquire at Arb or file a case at Arb? (the latter only works, however, if someone is/becomes active at Arb) 
18.05.2018 [14:55:59] <Etienne> -> an other Arbitrator has to overrule this case or to take over this case to be able to review (but we should not give advices or directions to Arb as Arb is independent from the executive).
18.05.2018 [14:56:54] <bdmc> Somewhere between a rock and a hard place.
18.05.2018 [14:57:30] <bdmc> Has anybody been involved in recruiting members of that group?
18.05.2018 [14:57:57] <egal> software? support? ... or arbitration?
18.05.2018 [14:58:05] <bdmc> Arbitration
18.05.2018 [14:58:42] <bdmc> Really everybody, but Arbitration to begin with.
18.05.2018 [14:58:46] <Etienne> In my understanding, Arbitration is self organised and independen from Inc and board.
18.05.2018 [14:59:02] <bdmc> Agreed
18.05.2018 [14:59:43] <bdmc> Can we encourage them to increase their numbers, or are they doing a "work to rule" action?
18.05.2018 [14:59:46] <Etienne> We are bound to them trough the CCA.
18.05.2018 [15:01:31] <Etienne> Who is Arb today? AlexUK, pipobscure and Sebastian, right, egal?
18.05.2018 [15:01:45] <egal> lambert, mario
18.05.2018 [15:01:59] <bdmc> egal: So we are basically stuck, and unable to do ANYTHING in CAcert unless they allow it.
18.05.2018 [15:02:02] <egal> ted (bernhard) blocked by being education officer
18.05.2018 [15:02:08] <Etienne> More than I excepted, great!
18.05.2018 [15:02:35] <egal> pip and sebastian are quite silent
18.05.2018 [15:02:54] <Etienne> Not only pip and Sebastian.
18.05.2018 [15:03:02] <bdmc> So that is three, maybe.
18.05.2018 [15:03:40] <egal> for arbitration cases we need arbitrator and case-manager ... (ted may take a case manager role, but not arbitrator due to his officer-job)
18.05.2018 [15:05:08] <Etienne> Well, to get Arb running, Arb has to get it running by themself. How can we dab this? Support? ask informally? open a case?
18.05.2018 [15:05:13] <egal> from support view there were only a quite small number of arbitration-cases started within the last 12 months ...
18.05.2018 [15:05:39] <egal> (started? ... no ... triggered by moving support-tickets to arbitration queue)
18.05.2018 [15:06:01] <Etienne> (and a lot pending. houndreds?)
18.05.2018 [15:06:39] <egal> IMHO: the "non-technical" ones broke arbitration in the past ... ;-(
18.05.2018 [15:07:52] <egal> the new ones are only technical ones ... not personal anymore
18.05.2018 [15:08:42] <bdmc> Is anything happening when they do go to the arbitration queue?
18.05.2018 [15:09:29] <egal> @bdmc: you think about a trigger to arbitration-mailinglist?
18.05.2018 [15:09:34] <egal> i don't know ... ;-(
18.05.2018 [15:10:20] <bdmc> egal: do you mean a message asking what is happening, or a message asking when something ( ABC ) might get done, or????
18.05.2018 [15:11:14] <egal> as support i only move a ticket to arbitration queue if i can't solve it ...
18.05.2018 [15:11:45] <Etienne> What is more important: first get ABC back or first get Arb in general back?
18.05.2018 [15:11:47] <egal> normally it should appear in wiki at some time (manually by iCM)
18.05.2018 [15:12:36] <egal> from my personal point if view: get one ABC finished ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:13:02] <Etienne> I agree.
18.05.2018 [15:13:16] <egal> however: arbitration back to business ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:13:38] <Etienne> (newest Arb case in the wiki is from December 2016)
18.05.2018 [15:14:12] <egal> without arbitration issues can't be resolved ... and even the ABC-issue can't be resolved without arbitration ...
18.05.2018 [15:14:43] <bdmc> And Arbitration is one of the key parts of CAcert.  If they are not doing anything, what is the point of anything, and of their existance?
18.05.2018 [15:15:08] <Etienne> Yes, but maybe it is easyier to find to Arbitrators for one case (ABC) than to find Arbs for all.
18.05.2018 [15:15:27] <egal> arbitration (and support) is the main difference between our web-of-trust and PGP-wot ...
18.05.2018 [15:15:30] <Etienne> Suspend the supreme court in the USA....
18.05.2018 [15:16:15] <egal> at CAcert site there are rules, fines and arbitration is something is wrong ... at PGP-site there is nothing ... ;-(
18.05.2018 [15:16:52] <Etienne> So, ask formally or informally or open a case?
18.05.2018 [15:17:02] <bdmc> But if Arbitration does nothing, those rules and fines have no effect.
18.05.2018 [15:17:24] <Etienne> And a lot of things is blockated.
18.05.2018 [15:18:17] <GuKKDevel> I know Lambert is arbitrator also, isn't he the DRO (dispule resolution officer)
18.05.2018 [15:18:25] <egal> about the single ABC? ... i'll contact the arbitrator (being the claimant in this case)
18.05.2018 [15:18:43] <egal> DRO we don't have currently ... so it's board ...
18.05.2018 [15:19:22] <bdmc> egal: Thank you.  By their rules, that arbitrator must respond to you in a "timely manner," correct?
18.05.2018 [15:19:53] <egal> please note: according to a ruling DRO is an officer ... so we should not block an arbitrator ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:20:05] <egal> ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:20:23] <Etienne> (I cannot give advices. Maybe an other arbitrator can take over the ABC case, so he can decide, that new rules are OK and ABC possible again)
18.05.2018 [15:20:49] <bdmc> Well, if we can clear at least some blockage, we might get some of our other issues resolved.
18.05.2018 [15:21:47] <egal> there are 3 ABCs allowed for support (ruling of another arbitration case) ...
18.05.2018 [15:22:16] <egal> one was done, another one was triggered ... which makes one (maybe two) left ...
18.05.2018 [15:22:22] <Peter> This discussion is outside my expertise and I have to sign off now.
18.05.2018 [15:22:51] <egal> the one, which was done lacks the decision ... ;-(
18.05.2018 [15:22:59] <Etienne> Thank you Peter, for staying, good night.
18.05.2018 [15:23:00] <bdmc> Certainly, Peter.  It was nice having you.  We are coming up on 2.5 hours, and I am sure that others will need to leave, too.
18.05.2018 [15:23:27] <egal> for me it's hopefully 30 minutes left ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:23:55] <bdmc> I hope that we won't be that long!
18.05.2018 [15:24:53] <egal> well ... even if it's not "hiring" ...
18.05.2018 [15:24:57] <Etienne> Or we close here and will continue the discussion about ABC and Arb, as we cannot find a solution today. egal will get in touch with the Arb, I will try to ask AlexUK informally.
18.05.2018 [15:25:04] <bdmc> OK, so Dirk is going to ask his Arbitrator about his ABCs ( same Arbitrator? ) and we will see what happens?
18.05.2018 [15:25:37] <egal> ... we do have some progress in software: as far as i've read the latest 50+ mails all necessary accesses should be there for me and ted ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:25:53] <Etienne> Brian, if you know one of the others mentionned, you may ask him his opinion, how to get Arb more active in between.
18.05.2018 [15:25:55] <bdmc> Good.  One step.
18.05.2018 [15:26:24] <egal> (unfortunately i was busy with another non-cacert event the last weeks ... ;-( ... so i have to verify, update testserver-certificates etc.
18.05.2018 [15:26:55] <bdmc> Unfortunately, the only ones ( and unrelated ) that I have had conversations with, as far as I remember, are Ian and Wytze.
18.05.2018 [15:27:32] <egal> wytzs is critical, iang (at least) currently not active for CAcert ...
18.05.2018 [15:27:35] <bdmc> Shall we say that we are done with this topic?
18.05.2018 [15:27:47] <Etienne> for the moment, yes
18.05.2018 [15:28:18] <bdmc> In that case, I will go to item 3 and ask whether there are any questions from the floor?
18.05.2018 [15:28:35] <egal> let me think for a second ...
18.05.2018 [15:28:42] <egal> ... not from my site ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:29:41] <GuKKDevel> Arbitration problems:
18.05.2018 [15:30:04] <GuKKDevel> there was something Eva S. wrote https://lists.cacert.org/wws/arc/cacert-board-private/2017-05/msg00001.html
18.05.2018 [15:31:50] <bdmc> Do I need to read all of this, or can you give us the important points?
18.05.2018 [15:32:17] <bdmc> ( non-sensitive )
18.05.2018 [15:32:46] <GuKKDevel> some of the rulings contradict others 
18.05.2018 [15:33:06] <bdmc> I suspect that we already knew that.
18.05.2018 [15:33:24] <GuKKDevel> and arbitrators could be hold liable for more than the 1000 E mentioned in DRP
18.05.2018 [15:33:57] <GuKKDevel> she saw no way to get out of that deadlock
18.05.2018 [15:34:43] <Etienne> That is the Arbitrator's issue, not ours.
18.05.2018 [15:35:09] <egal> if it's arbitrators issue that it's yours ...
18.05.2018 [15:35:13] <egal> as board is DRO ...
18.05.2018 [15:35:42] <Etienne> Of course, but Iwe cannot solve it, but they could rule new rulings and overrule old ones. We not.
18.05.2018 [15:35:45] <bdmc> Wasn't there something about somebody being able to take an Arbitrator to court, even though they had signed an agreement that the Arbitration was final?
18.05.2018 [15:35:49] <egal> and ... if arbitration does not work ... how can we prove, that there is arbitration?
18.05.2018 [15:36:35] <bdmc> isn't there a "final report," even if the result is not as desired?
18.05.2018 [15:36:54] <egal> case - decision - appeal ...
18.05.2018 [15:37:03] <bdmc> exactly
18.05.2018 [15:37:12] <egal> at least the appeal decision is final ...
18.05.2018 [15:37:18] <Etienne> Let's contact them and continue an other day. (It is time for the 4o'clock tea and my little boy is hungry)
18.05.2018 [15:37:49] <bdmc> Past time!  I agree with him.
18.05.2018 [15:37:49] <egal> but for some personal cases there were issues about it ... (as far as i know)
18.05.2018 [15:38:23] <egal> i suggest to take this after the GDPR-issue again ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:38:27] <bdmc> Shall we put this on the agenda for next meeting?
18.05.2018 [15:38:55] <GuKKDevel> sure
18.05.2018 [15:38:57] <bdmc> Speaking of which, aside from our Special Meeting, when shall we meet again?  Two weeks or four?
18.05.2018 [15:39:18] <GuKKDevel> perhaps we could invite one of the known arbitrators
18.05.2018 [15:39:26] <bdmc> Agreed
18.05.2018 [15:39:42] <bdmc> AlexUK or Lambert or Mario?
18.05.2018 [15:39:53] <GuKKDevel> lets try all 
18.05.2018 [15:39:55] <bdmc> Or all three
18.05.2018 [15:40:16] <bdmc> OK, back to next meeting?  When?
18.05.2018 [15:40:17] <egal> if all three i would add ted ... ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:40:37] <egal> (even if he can't act as arbitration currently)
18.05.2018 [15:41:02] <Etienne> Thu 24-05 22europe Fri 25-05 06australia?
18.05.2018 [15:41:29] <bdmc> That is the Special Meeting.  I am talking about the next Regular Board Meeting.
18.05.2018 [15:41:30] <Etienne> Thu 24-05 16ny
18.05.2018 [15:42:17] <Etienne> Thu 07 June? (AU: Fri 08 june)?
18.05.2018 [15:42:37] <bdmc> Sounds good to me.  Everybody?
18.05.2018 [15:42:58] <Etienne> @Peter and RKrumbholz: IfThis is probabely very early for you, maybe you just login (for the quaorum!) and join half an hour later for Business?
18.05.2018 [15:43:55] <RKrumbholz> Will try
18.05.2018 [15:44:26] <bdmc> Peter is gone.  We could ask in e-mail.  We should get the invitation to the Special Meeting out as soon as possible, and make it clear that it will be very short.  ( less than half an hour, if possible )
18.05.2018 [15:45:12] <GuKKDevel> propagate also at board please
18.05.2018 [15:45:19] <Etienne> I will do it today or tomorrow (within 30 hours).
18.05.2018 [15:45:29] <bdmc> Good.
18.05.2018 [15:45:57] <bdmc> OK.  Any objections to June 7th, at our "regular" Board Meeting time?
18.05.2018 [15:46:33] <Etienne> Arbs are invited for June?
18.05.2018 [15:46:37] <bdmc> yes
18.05.2018 [15:47:19] <Etienne> maybe 21 UTC, so we have <60 min for business and <60 min for Arb discussion?
18.05.2018 [15:47:35] <bdmc> I will be at my conference that day, but will make sure that I am here.
18.05.2018 [15:47:59] <bdmc> Etienne: maybe???
18.05.2018 [15:48:19] <Etienne> Speaking with your mouth one thing and writing with your hand something else? ;-)
18.05.2018 [15:48:37] <bdmc> Oh, I am just working, not speaking.
18.05.2018 [15:48:48] <Etienne> :-(
18.05.2018 [15:48:56] <bdmc> I got "volunteered" to manage the volunteers this year.
18.05.2018 [15:49:40] <bdmc> OK, if there is nothing else, I think that it is time for me to close this meeting.  Any objections?
18.05.2018 [15:50:33] <RKrumbholz> No objections
18.05.2018 [15:50:36] <bdmc> In that case, I hereby declare this meeting of the CAcert Board, closed.
18.05.2018 [15:50:39] <Etienne> No objections
18.05.2018 [15:51:01] <Etienne> Thank you, good bye and "see" you next week!
18.05.2018 [15:51:06] <bdmc> Thank you all for being here.
18.05.2018 [15:53:04] <bdmc> Have a good evening all.  Good night, Ross.
18.05.2018 [15:53:23] <RKrumbholz> Thanks

Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2018-05-18-Logfile (last edited 2018-05-22 20:39:07 by GuKKDevel)