1 ~GuKKDevel 2 ~GuKKDevel_log 3 @ChanServ 4 bdmc 5 decay 6 dirk_on_server 7 dops 8 enyc 9 Etienne 10 FD 11 nb 12 nemunaire 13 Peter 14 sat 15 Skeeper 16 Treasurer 17 ynazarov 18 zerkalo 19 20 [NickServ] 21 Welcome to CAcert, Etienne! Here on CAcert, we provide services to enable the registration of nicknames and channels! For details, type /msg NickServ help and /msg ChanServ help. 22 → Etienne has joined 23 → FD has joined 24 → Peter has joined 25 FD 26 Good morning Peter! 27 Etienne 28 Good morning, Peter! 29 Good evenig, FD 30 FD 31 Bonsoir Etienne, 32 Etienne 33 Hello bdmc 34 bdmc 35 Greetings All 36 Peter 37 Good morning all 38 The sun is peeking through the trees 39 bdmc 40 Well, I guess that we should get moving. 41 I hereby call this meeting to order. 42 → Treasurer has joined 43 FD 44 Bonsoir Frédéric! 45 Etienne 46 Hello Treasurer 47 Treasurer 48 Bonsoir Frédéric 49 Bonsoir Etienne-le-suisse-le-secrétaire-général-le-plus-génial-du-monde 50 bdmc 51 Do we have two hours tonight? 52 Treasurer 53 Disclaimer : not for me, if possible. It is 22h and I must wake up 4h30 54 Etienne 55 If we finish after 100 min, I would be happy 56 bdmc 57 Ouch. 58 Treasurer 59 right 60 bdmc 61 Well, we will trim the agenda as much as possible. 62 Etienne 63 Let's start! 64 No minutes written, so we are faster. 65 bdmc 66 Shall we skip straight to 2.1.1 -- New Members? 67 Etienne 68 1.6. Points from the last meeting should be on the agenda. 69 bdmc 70 All right -- Item 1.6 -- 71 Etienne: 72 Etienne 73 New members: No1 is an legal entity. If we accept them 74 bdmc 75 Is this Item 1.6? 76 Etienne 77 it's on the AGM to fix the define the contribution (until now, we have only natural persons) 78 Sorry, 2.1.1. 79 bdmc 80 True. So we will delay that decision, and add it as an item on the AGM Agenda. 81 But back to 1.6. You had something for that? 82 FD 83 Lambert said he is positive on Karl-Heinz 84 He said he just need to write de decision 85 bdmc 86 FD: I'm sorry. What is this related to? 87 Etienne 88 I said on 1.6. that I hopefully added everything to the agenda. 89 FD 90 https://wiki.cacert.org/Arbitrations/a20160816.1 91 Etienne 92 bdmc: related to last meeting: DRO ask to ARB 93 FD 94 It is 1.6 (action points from the 05th of September 95 Etienne 96 FD cited answer from Arb. 97 bdmc 98 OK, but we are not at that Agenda Item, are we? 99 FD 100 https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-09-05#Actions 101 bdmc 102 Sorry. I was looking at the link from Item 1.6, and it doesn't point at that. 103 FD 104 Today's 1.6 directs to 2019-09-05 #Actions points, which directs to Karl-Heinz's ABC. 105 bdmc 106 I'm with you now. OK. Anything more on the September 5th items for 1.6? 107 OK. Once again, the published copy of the Agenda, which I am using, is not as current as yours. 108 More, or are we moving on? 109 bdmc 110 Nothing heard. I guess that we are moving on to Item 2.1.1. 111 FD 112 The good news here, is that Karl-Heinz will be able to join Support. 113 bdmc 114 We have, I think, agreed to postpone any decision on item 1. Items 2, 3, 4? Any discussion? 115 FD 116 Hans-Peter W is the only one who answered my question regarding who is he. 117 He wrote: 118 FD 119 "Our family business https://weecks-kanaltechnik.de/" 120 "My personal xing account (not very up-to-date) https://www.xing.com/profile/HansPeter_Weecks" 121 "You may also find some records regarding my old company Maxina GmbH & Co. KG/Verwaltungs GmbH (https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Billiges-Billing-und-Gratis-Roaming-fuer-WLAN-Hotspots-112197.html; Slashdot; Stack Overflow) as well as my involvement in the FFII and against Software Patents. " 122 He looks like someone we may want to have on-board. 123 bdmc 124 Do we know anything more about Dominik? 125 Etienne 126 Thank you, FD, for this inquieries and information. 127 FD 128 Dominik did not send back any answer. 129 Etienne 130 He fullfill all official requests. He sent, was he is told be statutes/wiki to send. 131 bdmc 132 I am willing, now, to make three motions, one for each candidate, to accept their application. 133 Etienne 134 I request that Hans-Peter Weecks, Germany, be accepted as a member of CAcert Inc. (last name will be W. in the motion for privacy reasons) 135 bdmc 136 Second 137 Etienne 138 aye 139 Treasurer 140 aye 141 bdmc 142 aye 143 FD 144 yes 145 bdmc 146 Etienne: When you record that, make it "I move that". 147 FD 148 I have a question regarding members who do not disclose more private details. 149 bdmc 150 FD: Yes? 151 FD 152 We had a talk about it with Etienne two days ago. 153 What is the meaning of our vote, in case we do not know at all who we are voting for? 154 → egal has joined 155 FD 156 For instance, Bernhard said he knows Sascha, but Sascha answered he does not know Bernhard. 157 bdmc 158 egal: As I remember, , correct? 159 FD 160 Or Dominik applies without being know by any of us? 161 Etienne 162 In the past we always sponsored people with no sponsor, even we do not know personal details. 163 FD 164 If the idea about our vote, is to "filter" people who may enter the association but harm it later, should we know a little bit who they are? 165 Etienne 166 (past = last 3 years) 167 egal 168 @bdmc ... as far as i know two CAcert-Inc-members "suggest" a new member ... 169 bdmc 170 Etienne: That is how I remember it, also. 171 FD 172 Who is suggesting Dominik ? 173 bdmc 174 Shall we then, delay the decision on Dominik? 175 FD 176 Or Sascha too 177 Etienne 178 egal: yes, but there is in the wiki also the possibility to apply with name, postal address, acceptance of CCA & CARS. Then usually board sposnosred 179 bdmc 180 FD: Why? Ted is his "sponsor." 181 Etienne 182 I move that Sascha Ternes, Germany, be accepted as a member of CAcert Inc. (last name will be T. in the motion system for privacy reasons) 183 bdmc 184 Second 185 Peter 186 aye 187 FD 188 I don't know, I abstain. 189 Treasurer 190 abstain 191 bdmc 192 aye 193 Etienne 194 aye 195 bdmc 196 I think that I am hearing that we are not ready to accept Dominik. Is that true? 197 FD 198 My point here is that we are very picky with our compliance with many rules and policies everywhere, and when it comes to new members, it looks like there is no rules so much. 199 Etienne 200 3 or 4 ayes and some abst, no nayes = accepted 201 FD 202 For Dominik, you are right, but the same is true for Sascha. 203 bdmc 204 You do not trust Ted to offer us a good candidate? 205 FD 206 Bernhard said he knows Sascha, but Sascha answered that he made a mistake, he is not the guy Bernhard had in mind. 207 Treasurer 208 I think the same 209 FD 210 Sascha wrote: 211 bdmc 212 Ah. That was not what I heard earlier. 213 FD 214 "really? Just looked on my assurances but didn't find your name there." 215 talking about Bernhard. 216 bdmc 217 So Ted was supposed to have assured this Sascha, not just knows him ( of him ) ? 218 FD 219 Yes. Bernhard wrote: 220 "I had CAcert related contact with Sascha since 2014, so I am happy to 221 second his application (if this is necessary at all)." 222 Sascha then answered: 223 "really? Just looked on my assurances but didn't find your name there." 224 bdmc 225 "CAcert related contact", not assurance. 226 Etienne 227 IMHO it is strange to sccept everyone during 3 years and at the moment, we invite people to join Inc, to delay things. We should accept people who apllied correctly. And the we can ask Inc to change the rules for the future or change how we apply the rules in the future. But not change during an ongoing proccess. 228 bdmc 229 There definitely seems to be some confusion here, between Ted and Sascha. However, we have already made a motion and voted. The time for discussion was really before that. 230 FD 231 Yes, but I had no time left to talk about it as I wanted before the motion was proposed. 232 Basically, neither Dominik nor Sascha are sponsored by two CAcert Inc. members at the moment. This is my point. 233 bdmc 234 OK. If you insist, we can ask whether Etienne is willing to withdraw his motion, and we can carry on discussing this. 235 FD 236 I don't want to be seen as excessive. But either we claim to have rules, either we do not respect them. 237 bdmc 238 I will go wth the majority here, as far as further discussion. If we do agree with Frederic ( FD ) then we must re-examine the application of Hans-Peter. Did two members "sponsor" ( or suggest ) him? 239 Etienne 240 FD, you're right. Only in 2016, 2017 and 2018 the sponsors were always board members who knew something: We are looking for people who will get in touch with us. With this experience, I have put these candidates on the agenda and informed them accordingly. We can interpret the statutes more strictly. But we should announce this in advance and not during the ongoing process. 241 Treasurer 242 I think we are in a pivotal position, recovering from almost closure. After the colossal efforts of Etienne / Brian / Frederic and the current success, I think we have had the chance in the past to accept honest people on the board. Perhaps we are at risk now, and an alert like Frederic said could be heard. 243 FD 244 I guess this is fair for these people to be welcomed in October as well. 245 September or October, does not make a big difference. 246 Etienne 247 What changes until October? E.g. Dominik's application complies 1:1 with the requirements. 248 (the others were formulated freehand) 249 FD 250 Sounds difficult to have a fair understanding through the keyboard. What is so urgent with Dominik, Sascha and others, that we have to decide right now? We have not a clue who Dominik is, that is my whole point. Better to welcome him in October, knowing who he is, than voting now. 251 Same for Sascha. 252 Etienne 253 Formally, we have to distinguish: FD would like to discuss how membership applications are handled. The agenda, however, is includes 4 members (2 of whom have already been voted on). 254 FD 255 I just outline that we should no take a quick and dirty decision, when there is no matter of urgency. 256 Treasurer 257 My opinion is like FD too. Nevertheless, I see Etienne insisting and, because of his long knowledge and his involvement in CAcert, I read what I needed and I'll accept the will of Etienne. 258 FD 259 Etienne, why does it look so important for you? 260 bdmc 261 On the other hand, perhaps we could add a link to the appropriate clause of the bylaws to the next Agenda, so that everybody could be familiar with the current rules, and finish this next meeting. 262 bdmc 263 We have approximately 30 minutes remaining for this meeting. 264 Etienne 265 I like to discuss the questions of procedure (relaxed rules or stricter) when we have the necessary time. But I am not a friend of application changes in an ongoing process. At the moment we have an agenda for 4 hours. Do you want to do it in 100 minutes and need 50 minutes for what took 5 minutes so far? 266 FD 267 I would just suggest to postpone the point and go ahead. 268 Etienne 269 We can put Domink and Function Office on the next agenda. 270 bdmc 271 Etienne: I don't think that we can decide Function Office here. I think that we need to ask the AGM, don't you? 272 FD 273 Yes 274 bdmc 275 I haven't read the bylaws recently, so I don't know what the wording on "members" is. 276 Etienne 277 I will read the statutes until next meeting 278 bdmc 279 Thank you. 280 FD 281 Thank you. 282 bdmc 283 OK. Very quickly on Item 2.1.2 I see that there have been about 6 voters, and November 22nd seems to be in the lead. 284 Etienne 285 https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/agm2019/ 286 bdmc 287 For Item 2.1.3 -- We understand that Frederic ( Treasurer ) is leaving us, as is Peter M. 288 Etienne 289 Half of board members did not answer and both dates are a bad choice. Any better idea? Maybe a thursday 290 bdmc 291 Or a Saturday? 292 We've done it on Saturday in the past. 293 Etienne 294 dops? egal? FD? 295 Sat 23-11-2019 or Sat 30-11-2019 296 Peter 297 I do not know what I am doing in November. Any time except Saturday morning. 298 bdmc 299 OK. So Friday night is out, but Saturday night is a possibility. 300 Etienne 301 Saturday evening would be Sunday morning for you 302 Peter 303 After the Westpac handover, I will not be attending meetings. 304 Etienne 305 Of course not, Peter. 306 bdmc 307 Yes, we understand. 308 Etienne 309 FD, Treasurer, what about Saturday 23/30? 310 FD 311 I am fine with the date. 312 Etienne 313 both? 314 Treasurer 315 I will arrange myself 316 both 317 bdmc 318 Etienne: Would it be practical to send a message to all CAcert Inc members, asking two questions. One for the AGM date ( or point them to the poll ), and one asking for board volunteers. I know that we have had one or two in the answer to the 360K, as we are calling it. 319 dops 320 @Etienne: 30-11-2019 better for me 321 Etienne 322 30-11-2019 - do we need a motion? 323 bdmc 324 If we want to "fix" it now. Yes, let us do one. 325 Etienne 326 bdmc: do it! 327 bdmc 328 I hereby move that we hold the 2019 Annual General Meeting on Saturday, 30 November 2019 and 20:00 UTC. 329 Treasurer 330 I second 331 Etienne 332 second and aye 333 FD 334 yes 335 bdmc 336 ( Darn! and = at ) 337 Treasurer 338 aye 339 bdmc 340 aye 341 Etienne 342 bdmc: For board members: we should contact the candidates. Asking at the members list did not get answers in the past. 343 bdmc 344 True. Do we have enough volunteers to fill both outstanding positions? Also, of course, we have the Australian requirement, but we can worry about that afterwards, if necessary. 345 I think that the answer to my first question is "yes." 346 Etienne 347 Can I find them on the Excel sheet? 348 bdmc 349 I think so. Check with FD, as well, in case I missed anybody. 350 Etienne 351 I will check with FD and contact them. -> maybe some new Inc members! 352 bdmc 353 In fact, I see 7.5 check marks in that column. 354 FD 355 Regarding the to-be-elected treasurer, are we going to let the vote decide, or are we choosing him/her, as per a recruitment process? 356 bdmc 357 FD: You weren't around, I think, but we have talked in the past about a "finance committee," with the Board Member ( Treasurer ) being the chair of that committee. 358 In that case, the Board Member doesn't actually need to be doing the bookkeeping. 359 Etienne 360 We can control this: Who fits which post? As "chair" (= elected) or in the corresponding team (e.g. finance team)? Subsequent proposal to AGM. 361 bdmc 362 Treasurer: Do you remember how many volunteers you had for that job? 363 Treasurer 364 at least 5 365 I have recorded all the volunteers in an Excel sheet 366 FD 367 I found 7 of them, two of them with a strong record track. 368 bdmc 369 I think, once we talk to the various Board and other possible candidates, that we should be good for the AGM. 370 Etienne 371 Great, so we will have a look at this in the next days (Frédéric&Frédéric&me) 372 Treasurer 373 ok 374 FD 375 Fine. 376 bdmc 377 I see 10, with two more possibles, in my spreadsheet. 378 Moving on. 379 Etienne 380 A *brief* re-cap of the mailing that took place, and its results. (Brian) 381 bdmc 382 B-) 383 OK, I don't know anything about bounces, I just saw the reasults. 384 I didn't count donations, but we have had, so far, 174 volunteers of some sort. Several others with various issues and comments. ( FD can comment ) 385 Of those 174, well over 100 volunteered to be systems administrators. 386 I have sent a message to all of those people, and Gero and Jan and others are trying to handle that. I have also tried to point some of them to Dirk, and others can go to him, too. 387 I sent a message to Wytze this morning, reporting on some of this, and promising more results soon. 388 I think that's all for now. 389 Treasurer 390 I can add a financial result here if you wish 391 FD 392 One exciting point is that at least three different businesses proposed a cooperation, as they need a solution as ours in their business model. However, the lack of public trust for our root certificates might be a deal breaker for two of them. To be explored further. 393 Etienne 394 yes, please 395 bdmc 396 Treasurer: go ahead 397 Etienne 398 FD, maybe we create a corporate team to deal with them. bdmc should be in as president. 399 bdmc 400 FD: Other businesses offered some kind of sponsorship. 401 Treasurer 402 We received around 300 donations / funds in a big wave for a week 403 3-4 a day currently 404 bdmc 405 Treasurer: Do you have a record of the "subscriptions," the recurring donations, either monthly or otherwise? 406 Treasurer 407 I am writing receipt for each of them, and register in a sheet. Some of them doing monthly or yearly subscriptions 408 Treasurer 409 Not yet, too much work to absorb the flow. I am focusing on the receipts and will be more precise after or with the help of the new treasurer. 410 FD 411 How much do we have "automatic payment" activated by now? How much recurring money does it guaranties for the coming years? 412 bdmc 413 As our Treasurer knows, I have sent a personal Thank You note to all donors who gave more than ( and equal to ) 100. 414 Etienne 415 +1 416 Treasurer 417 FD: I don't know yet 418 FD 419 How do AUD do we have at the moment? Same question for EUR. Do we have a USD sub-account within our Paypal account? 420 How do -> How much 421 bdmc 422 FD: I think that that is more for the Finance part of the Agenda. 423 FD 424 Ok 425 bdmc 426 Anything more about the Mailing, for now? 427 FD 428 There is a big risk to have people assigned to teams, but team leaders not being available enough to lead them in the right way. 429 Etienne 430 (30 min left - what is pressing, what can be done next week?) 431 bdmc 432 OK, nothing heard. I want to spend a few minutes on Item 2.2.2 -- our Corporate person who wants to set up a recurring donation in exchange for "credit" on the web site. 433 bdmc 434 Do we want to discuss this, or just create a motion to accept his offer? 435 Etienne 436 Deep, deep in the wiki, we offer this kind of partnership. 437 Peter 438 Suggestion: https://linuxmint.com/sponsors.php 439 bdmc 440 In the "pit," correct? 441 FD 442 Wouldn't we better to negotiate a deal with him first, then make a motion later to accept the deal or to reject it? 443 bdmc 444 I think that he was only asking for his logo and perhaps a link to his business on the cacert.org home page. 445 FD: you want to change his offer. OK, if you like. 446 ( sorry -- offer? ) 447 Peter 448 Suggestion 2 for sponsors is the section in the following monthly announcement: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3795 449 Etienne 450 bdmc: has there to be a motion? IMHO more discussion needed 451 FD 452 BTW, we should urgently remove the logo + link to the Open Architecture Network, on our web front page. The domain disappeared and forward to something non related. 453 Etienne 454 FD-> there is a bug about this! 455 FD 456 I did not know. 457 bdmc 458 Etienne: No, that was why I asked whether we want to discuss this. 459 Peter: Yes, we have looked at LinuxMint before. At the moment, we have very few corporate sponsors, two or three, I think. 460 FD 461 Worth to talk with our potential sponsor first, then close a deal, then have a motion. 462 bdmc 463 FD: My problem with that order, is that we have no authority to make such a deal outside of the Board. 464 Etienne 465 Decades ago, board proposed this kind of deals. We can just follow this road. 466 bdmc 467 Etienne and FD: We could have a motion authorising someone ( more than one, perhaps ) to investigate and return to the Board for final confirmation. 468 FD 469 As you wish. 470 bdmc 471 Up to you two. I just wonder about procedure. 472 Anybody else can comment. 473 FD 474 I would go the way proposed by Etienne. 475 Just follow the tradition. 476 bdmc 477 I don't really understand what he is proposing, but I guess that I will accept. 478 Peter 479 yes. Do it. 480 There were donations in Westpac of $40, $25, $20. How do we celebrate that size donation? 481 Etienne 482 First negociate to know the details. Then disuss, vote. 483 bdmc 484 OK. We are skipping many items, and stopping at Item 2.5.1, briefly. 485 Etienne 486 Peter, the Treasurer usually sends a thank you mail. (if e-mail is known) 487 Treasurer 488 and a receipt 489 FD 490 Peter, do we have sub-accounts in USD or EUR at Westpac? Or at least a possibility to have such sub-account, should we choose to do it? 491 bdmc 492 I guess that we are doing Item 2.6, now. 493 Treasurer 494 it seems, does it? 495 Peter 496 There is an option listed for that. You are probably better collecting euros in a European bank for local spending. 497 Peter 498 Westpac statements are quarterly. Next one is end of October. There are three deposits this month. 499 FD 500 I was asking, trying to find the best way to get our Paypal money converted between USD/AUD/EUR. Thank you. This is an entire other matter, which we are not going to enter to now. 501 bdmc 502 There will be no time for anything other than 2.6 ( Finance ) since we are past our 100 minute deadline. 503 Is anybody ready to address item 2.6.1? 504 Peter 505 I will email deposit details. 506 Etienne 507 Thank you, Peter. 508 bdmc 509 Peter: Were you able to get Administrative rights? 510 Treasurer 511 thank you. I need it to send receipts and record people 512 Peter 513 No admin rights 514 bdmc 515 OK. I guess that that is everything outstanding for item 2.6.1. 516 Item 2.6.2 -- Treasurer, are you ready to talk about this item? ( I know that the donations are taking up most of your time. ) 517 Treasurer 518 I don't know what are the membership fees and what are donations or payments or even if it is relevant to distinguish them from the current cash in 519 bdmc 520 All right. How about current balances? ( short form ) 521 Etienne 522 It is important to be paid up as a member to have access to the AGM. 523 €5,337.94 EUR 524 $3,354.55 AUD 525 $532.92 USD 526 total ca.7,800 EUR & Westpac 527 Treasurer 528 I didn't send an email for calling to membership fees for not interfering with the great email. I can do that after, to collect more money. We will see. All donators could also tagged as members. 529 We have in the Paypal account: €7,762.37 EUR = €5,299.73 EUR + $3,345.21 AUD + $532.92 530 bdmc 531 Treasurer: No. They have to be in the register as Members. 532 Etienne 533 Treasurer, I will send an e-mail about membership fees. Donators of the community are not members of the association. 534 Treasurer 535 understood 536 FD 537 Where does the discrepancy between Etienne's figures and yours come from? 538 Etienne 539 I will send an e-mail at Treasurer 540 bdmc 541 Do we want to talk about Item 2.6.3? 542 FD 543 I would like to do so. 544 Etienne 545 FD: Treasurer copied earlier than me from PP. 546 FD 547 Ok 548 After all invoices to Secure-U have been paid? 549 Treasurer 550 yes, no more debt 551 Peter 552 Westpac is $868.73 + $2304.29 with the donations. 553 bdmc 554 Treasurer: Yes, I saw something that said that you had paid the invoice before we authorised it. OK. 555 Treasurer 556 not before we authorised it, please. We voted to pay it two months ago. 557 FD 558 Frederic, how much did we had on Paypal (AUD/USD/EUR) before the 5th of September (before the 360K. mail) and how much do we have now? 559 Treasurer 560 see above what we have now, from the Paypal screen right now 561 on end of July 2019 Paypal account was 647.29 EUR 562 bdmc 563 OK. We have come up to two hours, not 100 minutes, so I am ready to call this meeting closed. Our next meeting is currently scheduled for one week from today ( tonight ). Agreed? 564 FD 565 Ok 566 Treasurer 567 In a nutshell, we have roughly between 10 to 11000 EUR now. CAcert is saved, thanks to your wonderful job 568 Etienne 569 Thank you everyone! Have a nice day, Peter and bdmc! Good night Treasurer and FD and dops, egal! 570 Treasurer 571 agreed 572 bye 573 FD 574 Good evening all. 575 Good morning Peter. :-0 576 Peter 577 Found transaction export to CSV. Sent in email. Bye. 578 bdmc 579 I guess that I should actually declare this meeting closed. 580 Etienne 581 +1 582 FD 583 bye. 584 Treasurer 585 +1 586 ← Treasurer has left 587 ← Peter has quit (Quit: Leaving) 588 bdmc 589 Good night everybody ( who is left ) B-) 590 ← bdmc has quit (Quit: leaving) 591 ← dops has left
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