Committee meeting - 2021-11-04 - IRC log bdmc Good Morning Dirk, Etienne, Frederic and Sascha. 21:57:56 Good Evening Mitch. 21:58:09 MitchMaifeld Greetings! 21:58:23 Etienne Good Morning, bdmc, egal, FD, sat, MitchMaifeld 21:59:41 bdmc It is a soggy, grey day here in North Carolina. My phone says that it is 7 degrees. 21:59:54 Waiting..... 22:00:15 And it is now 20:00 UTC. 22:00:25 Etienne https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2021-11-04 22:00:35 bdmc I hereby call this meeting of the Board ( Committee ) of CAcert, Inc. to order. 22:01:31 As usual, I would like to make this as short as possible, but cover everything that needs to be covered. 22:01:47 → pnunn est entré 22:01:53 bdmc Etienne, I looked at the Agenda earlier, and again now, and am not sure what I am seeing. 22:02:01 Greetings and welcome Peter. 22:02:06 pnunn Morning all. 22:02:15 Etienne Good morning pnunn 22:02:40 bdmc However, I will move on and ask whether there is anything in either of the mailing lists that we need to discuss. 22:03:31 FD Hi! We have the live temporary notepad to keep track of the minutes here: https://nextcloud.cacert.org/s/k2zQANbBJys3nfY 22:03:52 bdmc Nothing heard. 22:04:10 Has everybody had a chance to look at last month's Minutes? 22:04:15 FD We have the audio-video channel, in parallel to the classical IRC channel, here: https://conference.germanywestcentral.cloudapp.azure.com/b/ber-n8r-r5b-a1v 22:04:54 Etienne https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2021-11-04#Minutes 22:05:04 pnunn Thanks Etienne, was about to ask :{ 22:05:33 My eamil search foo isn't good at this time of day :) 22:05:49 bdmc That is, of course, the Minutes section of this month's Agenda, but you can find the Agenda from that. 22:06:37 May I have a motion to accept last month's minutes? 22:06:38 Etienne https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2021-10-07#Minutes 22:07:31 pnunn I move we accept last months minutes. 22:07:36 FD I second 22:07:40 bdmc Thank you, Peter. 22:07:42 Etienne aye 22:07:45 FD yes 22:07:48 bdmc All in favour? 22:07:49 pnunn aye 22:07:50 bdmc aye 22:08:10 mcr: Are you actually here, or just your machine? 22:08:57 Silence. B-) 22:09:20 OK, it appears that we have a majority approving of last month's minutes. 22:09:23 FD In fact, the minutes from the last meeting (2020-10-07) have had been written on the fly and made available immediatly.. 22:09:44 Etienne Thank you Frédéric! 22:10:18 bdmc As you will all see from the Agenda, we don't have much pre-arranged, but will consider today's meeting an extra-long Question Period. 22:10:37 Does anybody have any issues that they would like to bring before the Board? 22:11:29 Etienne Who is responsible for the project, the funding for which has now been secured? 22:11:38 bdmc Remember that the AGM is one week from Saturday. 22:12:20 pnunn Not an issues as such, but, as this is my last board meeting, I'd like to take the opportunity to put in the minutes my thanks for all of your time and friendship over the past few years, and hope that CACert continues to move forward, as I'm sure it will, under Brian's direction into the future. Its been fun. 22:13:04 bdmc pnunn: I should point out that you can't get away that easily. We still expect your continuing participation in CAcert, in other ways. B-) 22:13:53 Etienne Thank you Peter. And I hope we can continue to count on you when we need a trusted person in Australia. 22:13:55 pnunn Time permitting @bdmc. I have back to back meetings today from the end of this one until 6pm :( (most days are not this bad). 22:14:13 bdmc However, Peter does raise an important point. At this time we have no candidates for the election next weekend. 22:14:14 pnunn Of course @Etienne, I'm not moving any time soon :) 22:15:40 mcr hi. I'm here. 22:15:40 bdmc We can simply ask for nominations and volunteers "from the floor," but usually we have advertised the need for candidates before now. I have neglected that item this year. 22:15:51 pnunn In tha case, I would like to nominate Brian -> President, Frédéric-> Vice President, Etienne -> Secretary and hope they will accept the nominations. 22:16:03 mcr Bad news: I was distracted and lost track of the time. Good news: I found the bug I've been looking for two days. 22:16:18 bdmc mcr: I know that satisfaction well! 22:16:49 mcr pnunn: no good deed will go unpunished :-) 22:16:51 bdmc I would like to also nominate our current, and continuing, Treasurer, Michael Richardson. 22:17:00 mcr I will accept. 22:17:43 bdmc Although I sometimes feel less useful than I would like, I will also accept Peter's nomination. 22:18:04 mcr How big is the board? Minimum? Maximum? 22:18:16 I'm wondering if there are bushes I can beat for volunteers. 22:18:48 pnunn There will be aleast one vacant position @mcr :) 22:18:57 bdmc With the move from Australia, there is not the forced requirement for two Australians. In any case, as my memory fails me, I think that seven is the number. 22:19:37 Etienne, I know that your memory is better than mine. 22:19:57 pnunn @FD, @Etienne?? 22:20:23 bdmc sat: Are you present? 22:20:31 Etienne yes, seven members. nominations have to be seconded ;-) 22:20:49 bdmc But also accepted. 22:21:04 pnunn I second @mcr 22:21:31 bdmc And I definitely second Etienne and Frederic. 22:21:45 mcr Some boards have rules like, "any odd number from 5 to 9" to allow boards to grow/shrink. 22:22:55 bdmc mcr: That has been how we have certainly operated ( by necessity ) in the past. Generally, we hold the AGM, see how many were elected, and fill in the missing seats shortly thereafter by volunteering people. 22:23:16 Etienne This will also become similar in the next statue revision. At the moment we still have the old, rigid ones according to NewSouthWales specifications. 22:23:44 If we have >7, we create sub committees, if we have <7, one post remains vacant ;-) 22:23:56 FD Of course, I second with pleasure and confidence Michael, Brian and Etienne. I think that we should nominate Dirk as well, as he is a key person at CAcert. 22:24:50 bdmc Since Dirk is the person who got me on the Board in the first place, I would be happy to nominate him, but I suspect that he will still refuse. 22:25:20 pnunn With the current rules, can he be on the board and still hold his current positions? 22:25:30 Etienne Dirk was on the board. But that is not compatible with the functions he has. Besides, I think he has too much on his plate as it is. 22:26:01 bdmc I would also like to nominate Sascha, even though he seems to be missing. 22:26:37 Etienne We should try to involve sat and Guy more. They are good people! I'm working on Guy (for OrgA), but it takes time... 22:26:53 bdmc I agree. 22:27:01 Etienne I second for Sascha 22:27:56 FD I would nominate Wacław Schiller as well. 22:29:54 pnunn Do we have a second for FD? I've missed it if we do. 22:30:04 bdmc I don't really know anything about him. Does anybody other than Frederic? 22:30:12 mcr I will second nomination for FD. 22:30:32 FD Wacław Schiller is a member of our finance team. 22:30:38 Etienne I accept my nomination and second for Waclaw. 22:30:43 mcr I guess the entire board is re-elected every year, and the terms are one year. (vs having half the board elected on two year terms) 22:31:30 bdmc Correct. That might be something to propose, as a modification, in the Policy Group. 22:31:52 pnunn I think its dictated by the NSW rules of association to be that at the moment. 22:33:06 bdmc That is a perfect opportunity to ask: 22:33:09 Etienne Our statutes must become simpler and leaner. This is a project of the Secretary. He works on it whenever there is nothing more important at CAcert. 22:33:12 mcr When did we formally move from NSW? 22:33:18 2019? 2020? 2021? 22:33:35 bdmc Etienne: How are the meetings with the lawyers going? 22:33:45 mcr: 2021-ish 22:33:51 mcr Etienne reformatting the bylaws sounds like a good beer-mediated group activity! 22:34:37 Etienne That is a question of perspective. From a Swiss perspective, we have been in Switzerland since the end of last year. Formally, we are still waiting for the last stamp to be definitively released from the register in NSW. 22:35:09 Offically, we say, we are now a Swiss Association. 22:35:34 bdmc But we still have a toe in the Australian waters. 22:36:59 pnunn About as much as you'd want in Australian waters at the moment, someone might shoot it off with a nuclear sub. 22:37:35 bdmc Etienne: Would it be possible, as part of the final announcement of the AGM, to the members, to include a call for volunteers and nominations? They could be presented as coming "from the floor." 22:37:47 Etienne Of course. 22:38:03 bdmc pnunn: Are you still locked up at home? 22:38:33 pnunn No, we are now free to roam @bdmc as long as we are double vaxed. 22:38:50 bdmc A mixed blessing, right? 22:38:53 pnunn But... given I work from here anway.. not much has changed. 22:39:09 Indeed, best to stay close while the numbers climb. 22:39:22 bdmc True. My life over the past couple of years has been barely affected. 22:39:43 OK, any other nominations, or should we find a different topic? 22:39:45 mcr I feel like singing the song about how the buffalo roam. 22:39:54 pnunn :) 22:42:08 bdmc Nothing heard. Do we want to talk about the current topic in Policy Group, or the item in our Questions? The whole question about dealing with "long distance" Assurances, or "dead" Assurers. 22:43:45 pnunn It is an interesting one here, I suspect if asked, the "dead" Assurers would be happy to meet a candidate and assure them, but weather they would put much effort into it is questionable. 22:44:30 Etienne I find the question of the "dead" Assurians very tricky. If we throw them out, the community will become smaller. We don't know why they are "dead" at the moment. One year after the simple certificate creation process is up and running again, things might look completely different. 22:44:37 mcr Etienne: about getting access to CHF account.... 22:45:06 What are "dead" Assurers? 22:45:29 pnunn Good point too @Etienne. 22:46:12 Etienne Dead asssurers are people on the assurer list not answering. 22:46:18 bdmc mcr: There are a proportion of people listed as available Assurers in our database that have not been heard of, or heard from, for years. 22:46:22 mcr thank you for the explanation. 22:46:29 Etienne Last week I answered a question from last year on Wikipedia. Am I now "dead", "alive" or "resurrected"? 22:47:52 pnunn I don't think there is an issues leaving sleeping dogs lie. If were not asked to remove someone, the assumption is they are happy to stay. 22:48:22 Etienne Someone contacts an assurer and gets no answer. He complains. Maybe the e-mail address is no longer valid, the other person is no longer active, sick, overworked, on holiday, working overtime? We do not know. 22:48:29 bdmc As long as they haven't just "dropped out" without telling any body. 22:48:44 mcr more like they are Zombies rather than Dead. 22:48:52 bdmc Good point. 22:49:05 pnunn There will be a proportion who don't even remember who CACert is @bdmc, no doubt about that. 22:49:49 I have to admit, I've not been contacted by anyone wanting Assurance for serveral decades. 22:50:50 Etienne It was suggested to write to everyone and delete those who do not respond. But then the register would become so small that we would no longer need to offer a register. With opt-in we should exept about 3% answers. That means Register with 4000 assurers world wide becomes 120 world wide. 22:51:35 bdmc The other half of that issue is getting new people assured when they are not in the near vicinity of an active Assurer, or the two of them do not want to meet in person. Aside from the conversation in Policy Group, Mitch and I were talking about this yesterday, and there are certainly issues raised by this problem. 22:51:41 mcr Is this an action (contacting people and deleting them) that we ought to pass a resolution about? 22:52:25 Etienne I am not sure if the register belongs to us (Inc) or the community. 22:52:36 bdmc I would suggest that this is something that we can pass off to the "new Board." !! 22:52:47 Etienne +1 22:52:48 mcr bdmc, could we pass a resolution endorsing some remote assurer process, as an interim and emergency measure, due the pandemic, and expiring, say, March 2023? 22:53:14 pnunn Its tricky, one would assume with the technology we have now a face to face meeting could be avoided, but, with the technology we have now, can you really be sure the image you talk too is infact them.. sigh. 22:54:01 bdmc Those are both exactly some of the issues being raised. 22:54:57 Then there is also the question of the Assurer "possessing" the Assured's government documents, rather than just holding them for a few seconds and handing them back, as is the procedure today. 22:56:09 bdmc I suggest that we all look in the Policy Group, and contribute there. 22:56:33 That mailing list is open to all who wish to participate. 22:57:25 Etienne https://lists.cacert.org/wws/info/cacert-policy 22:57:49 bdmc Is there more to discuss on any topic, or would anybody object to finishing this meeting very early? 22:57:53 Etienne Are we talking propositions/ideas for 2021/2022? 22:58:29 bdmc I am open to any topic, here. 22:58:44 mcr pnunn, as a temporary measure (during these "unprecedented times") , and with fewer assurer points involved. Who is objecting? And what would they propose? Because if we don't fix this, then cacert might as well just stop. 22:59:15 @bdmc, is there a list of resolutions for next week? If there is, then I'll go read it. 22:59:37 bdmc I don't know of any. That is an Etienne thing, though. 22:59:43 mcr If we aren't going to do something at the AGM to deal with the arbitration/assurer/etc. problem, then what? 22:59:53 pnunn @mcr, we have used that thinking already for the ABC issue, so I don't personally have a problem with it at all. 23:01:18 bdmc mcr: To me, that is more of a Policy Group issue, which is "Community," rather than a CAcert Inc. Board issue. 23:01:34 mcr ABC => Abitrated Background Check, I'm told, right? And it's been replaced by...? 23:01:34 Etienne This is IMHO not a topic for the AGM, but for the board. The AGM deals budget, last year's finances, elections and statutes. It can be discussed, but then it goes to board or policy group. 23:01:59 Beside the "dead" assureres, I see six more topics. 23:02:14 pnunn @mcr, by a modified ABC. 23:02:15 mcr @bdmc, there isn't a Community. The Policy Group AFAIK, is not the committee of the board as a whole. 23:02:26 bdmc mcr: the "new" Background Check. ( Community Background Check was one of the names ) 23:02:46 mcr so, we solved the ABC problem via the CBC. Cool. 23:03:22 pnunn Temporarily I think isn't it? 23:04:03 bdmc mcr: Sorry. CAcert is two symbiotic entities, the CAcert Community, which is the bulk of the membership, and CAcert, Inc. which is the financial and executive, and formally recognized, organisation. 23:04:08 mcr @Etienne, in most organizations, the members, at the AGM, can change any part of the bylaws they want. Sometimes that takes more than one General Meeting, but basically, the Members trump all the other policies, because the Members write those policies. 23:04:59 Unless the CAcert Community is a legal entity with a distinct set of bylaws, it's just the members. 23:05:16 If the CAcert Community doesn't show up to the AGM, then they don't get a say. 23:05:25 bdmc There are only a few dozen members of CAcert Inc. 23:05:45 CAcert has a somewhat weird organization. 23:05:47 mcr We happen to be very courteous to our members (compared to the board of IBM... but) 23:06:18 bdmc ( What I mean is that there are two distinct sets of "members." ) 23:07:10 Etienne The community are 360 000 people with no legal status. They asked the association (us) to run on their behalf the infrastructure. Policy Group is the "parliament" of the community. 23:07:26 mcr What I mean, is that, we (the board of directors) has a legal mandate and obligation to fix the issues. We can't delegate to some nebulous community. Of course, we can consult. 23:07:42 Etienne The associaction has only a few members (hard core community members, if you want). 23:09:10 Etienne But if policies are concerned, we can only start a discussion at policy group and Policy group will vote at the end of the discussion. Of course, we are also member of Policy group. 23:09:51 That is what we did to move to Europe. It tooks some weeks. ;-) 23:12:09 Etienne I heard here: topics to be resolved in the next month if possible: A. dead assurers and B. Assurance by video conference. We can put it on the "wish list" for the new board. I have sme other topics: 23:12:13 1. push OrgA (Guy) 23:12:13 2. expand PR (Alex cannot do this, wants to hand over) 23:12:13 3. software testing (very important) 23:12:13 4. support SecureU (find an active board member for them in Germany) 23:12:13 5. expand background check 23:12:13 6. Simple certificate creation (this enables the start of various projects from the pipeline) 23:12:54 bdmc mcr: Weren't you talking about number 4 recently? 23:13:10 Etienne Things always move forward where someone takes up the cause and finds comrades-in-arms. Then he usually finds support from the board and also from the policy group, if necessary. 23:14:58 Etienne mcr would legitimately like more information about the money that secureU manages for us. For this, however, secureU needs a treasurer again. Not Dirk, who also does this on the side. We have more contacts in Germany than secureU. Maybe we can find someone interested? 23:15:37 mcr @Etienne, I'm asking for a resolution stating our intent to fix the process, be presented at the AGM, and that an email about this goes to the Policy Group now. 23:16:40 bdmc Etienne: I suggest that dead assurers is much less important than "remote assurances." If we have a method that allows people to do assurances from the other side of the country, not having somebody in the same town becomes much less important. 23:16:58 mcr agreed with above. 23:17:20 FD agreed with above, too. 23:17:25 mcr I'd be also find with remote assurances being limited to people within the same country, who would know what a local passport looks like. 23:17:27 Etienne I understand that, mcr. But at the moment it is explicitly excluded by a policy. You can start the discussion today at Policygroup to change that. I can send you the relevant §§ after the meeting. 23:17:37 mcr @Etienne, thank you. 23:19:05 bdmc Another item for the "new" Board, although more for a Team Lead, would be the RIPE NCC grant and project. 23:20:24 mcr I offered to review the SecureU bank statements and produce a P&L and Balance sheet. 23:20:33 That could be passed to someone in Germany. 23:21:21 Etienne mcr, I will get in touch with Dirk and tell you. 23:21:44 bdmc, Who is responsible for the ripe ncc project? 23:23:10 bdmc Etienne: exactly what I said, too. At present, the closest responsible person would be Frederic. In fact, he might be the best person for the "administrative" parts of the project. 23:24:18 bdmc FD: I don't know if this is the time, or maybe the AGM would be better, but would you accept the role of Project Manager for that project? 23:25:17 Etienne Richard 23:25:29 * mcr me? 23:25:36 bdmc Etienne: ??? Richard? 23:25:38 mcr people sometimes call me Richard, rather than Richardsdon. 23:25:56 especially my grade 11 french teacher, who failed "Michael", because she thought I was Richard. 23:25:59 FD I would consider you, Brian, as being the most skilled and experienced to lead the development of the OpenID Connect project. 23:26:01 Etienne sorry, nothing, 23:26:26 bdmc FD: I'm not talking about the Technical Lead position, but the adminstrative. 23:27:00 ( grrr "adminstrative should be administrative" ) 23:27:54 FD You know Brian, I am more on the side of writting together with you grant applications. I do not see a specific work to be done with that grant on the side of any "administrative duty" from know. We have to deliver a software feature, this is mainly this. 23:28:37 bdmc FD: Remember that RIPE expects some kind of progress reports, and there is also disbursement of the money to various people. 23:29:49 mcr So, I will be happy to manage disbursements, once I have access to the CHF/EUR account at the GKB. 23:29:52 FD I am sure you will be better than me, Brian, to dispatch the money, together with the help of Michael. 23:30:30 mcr progress reports are also rather easy, once I know what work is going to happen. Who is gonna get paid for this project? (I assume that we knew that part already) 23:30:47 bdmc OK. We can discuss this further, and not mention it, except as reporting the fact, in the AGM. 23:31:18 FD Etienne, could you open a EUR account at the GKB, too? It makes no sense to receive euros, getting them converted to CHF, then to pay in euros, does it? 23:31:21 bdmc mcr: No, not specifically. I have some ideas, according to the budget that we submitted with the application. 23:31:41 mcr What's our deadline with RIPE to get the work done? 23:31:56 or more specifically, how slow can we be without losing the money :-) 23:32:19 bdmc My memory, vague as it is, is the end of our fiscal year. 23:32:50 Possibly a bit sooner. 23:33:44 mcr okay. I won't do the hiring or searching for people, but I could do the project management and disbursment and reports if necessary. 23:33:53 FD Very good. 23:34:07 mcr I need to do some other work now, but I'll be on the computer for awhile longer. 23:34:23 bdmc OK. We need to deal with this, but not in the next week. 23:34:26 Etienne Timeline and important milestones 23:34:26 November 2020 - February 2021: 23:34:26 ◦ Design and implementation of integration with OpenID Connect protocol. 23:34:26 March 2021 - April 2021: 23:34:26 ◦ Further testing and delivery of OpenID Connect protocol implementation. 23:34:55 FD I would need to leave as well, if you would agree? 23:35:05 bdmc Oh, well. We missed all of our deadlines. B-) 23:35:10 Etienne bdmc what about the annual report? 23:35:29 bdmc Yes, I have started that. When do you need it? 23:36:26 Etienne 2021-10-30 (by the statutes, to be sent to the members) or next week (just for the AGM, as in some other years) 23:37:07 bdmc Sorry. I didn't get that message. I should have it to you by the beginning of next week. 23:37:19 Etienne Did you get the mail with the blog spots? 23:37:39 bdmc Blog Spots? I don't think so. 23:38:46 Etienne Sat, 23 Oct 2021 22:06:06 +0200 (I resent it just now) 23:38:53 pnunn Gents, I must away... my next meeting is fast approaching. 23:39:14 FD Have a very good day, Peter! 23:39:31 bdmc In that case, I will wish you all a good night ( or morning ), and call this meeting to a close. 23:39:36 Etienne bdmc, you can close the meeting and we two can finish the discussion off meeting. 23:39:41 pnunn Have a good evening all... good luck with all of this going forward. 23:39:52 Etienne good bye FD pnunn mcr 23:39:52 FD Ok, Bye! 23:40:00 pnunn bye. 23:40:08 Etienne @bdmc: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 22:06:06 +0200 (I resent it just now) 23:40:19 bdmc I am looking for it. 23:40:21 ← pnunn est parti du salon 23:40:40 Etienne a list of all blog spots of the CAcert-year 20/21