1 --- Log opened Thu Aug 05 15:57:19 2021
   2 15:57 + bdmc [bdmc@69.133.187.32] joined #board-meeting
   3 15:57 Irssi: #board-meeting: Total of 9 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]
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   5 15:59 + Etienne [00000000@localhost] joined #board-meeting
   6 16:01  Etienne> Hello
   7 16:01  bdmc> Greetings
   8 16:01  bdmc> Do you think we should wait for more people, or get started anyway?
   9 16:02  Etienne> I am sorry, I am late; just worked on bug 1533.
  10 16:02  bdmc> That's a good thing.
  11 16:02  Etienne> Are we 3?
  12 16:02  bdmc> I'm not sure which of us is "real."
  13 16:02  bdmc> I know that the two of us are.
  14 16:03  Etienne> I suppose, bdmc should be real :-)
  15 16:03  bdmc> B-)
  16 16:04  Etienne> One more would be nice.
  17 16:04  bdmc> Well, start at XX:15?
  18 16:05  bdmc> While we are waiting, did you not receive my request for the final copy of the message that we are planning to send to the members?
  19 16:06  Etienne> If you like. I hope, it willl not be to long, as I went by train for five hours today (always wearing a mask).
  20 16:07  Etienne> That one from March?
  21 16:09  bdmc> Was that one train or did you change?
  22 16:09  bdmc> Yes, I know that there were changes after I saw it the first time.
  23 16:12  Etienne> I took your version, but we skipped from the PS, PPS, .... the account from secureU (remaining only CAcert's), skipped the line, that we are looking for people for the finance team. Then is the proposition (sent by mail in july) to ad as PPS why we moved to Europe.
  24 16:13  bdmc> Right, so I wanted to see the what text was finally created.
  25 16:14  bdmc> Was your trip more than 500km?
  26 16:14  sat> good evening, good day
  27 16:14  Etienne> Mail from 30.07.21 at 00:15 "Re: Massenversand"
  28 16:14  bdmc> Welcome.  Long time no talk!
  29 16:14  Etienne> Hello sat, nice to see you here.
  30 16:15  bdmc> Etienne: I didn'think that that had the finished copy.
  31 16:15  bdmc> Since we are three, I hereby call this meeting to order.
  32 16:15  sat> I'll be here for 45 minutes.
  33 16:16  bdmc> sat: Etienne doesn't want to be too long, either.
  34 16:16  bdmc> So, Item 1.4 -- anything in the mailing lists that we need to discuss?
  35 16:17  Etienne> Not in the mailing list, but I added one hour before an important item: Infrastructure (new issues with the signer)
  36 16:18  bdmc> Alright.  Do want to discuss it now, or wait until later in the agenda?
  37 16:18  sat> Regarding Nextcloud (which is not in the agenda, but was topic in the ML):
  38 16:19  sat> I am currently waiting for the firewall adjustment
  39 16:19  Etienne> Who will do this adjustement?
  40 16:19  sat> I don't know
  41 16:19  bdmc> Unfortunately, we don't have anybody currently here who has that knowledge.
  42 16:20  bdmc> I think that I heard that Dirk and Jan would be doing it together.
  43 16:20  Etienne> Thank you.
  44 16:21  bdmc> Moving on -- Item 1.5 -- the Minutes from July 6th.  Any discussion?
  45 16:21  sat> As soon as I can log in I'll start installing NC.
  46 16:21  bdmc> sat: That will be great.
  47 16:22  Etienne> I move to accept the Minutes from July 6th, 2021.
  48 16:23  sat> I second that
  49 16:23  Etienne> aye
  50 16:23  bdmc> Sorry, Etienne.  I got the date wrong.  It was the 1st, but otherwise, I will take that motion and vote Aye.
  51 16:24  Etienne> Oh, thank you. I will correct it.
  52 16:24  sat> I second again and vote AYE
  53 16:24  bdmc> In the Agenda it is correct.
  54 16:25  bdmc> Next, Item 2.1.1 -- CCA change notice to members. -- Etienne and I were discussing this just before this meeting.
  55 16:25  bdmc> As soon as I see the final text, I would be happy to sign and send it.
  56 16:26  bdmc> Do I understand that Dirk is ready to send it, too?
  57 16:28  Etienne> Yes, Dirk is. I am just trying to share it with you.
  58 16:29 + FD [50521814@localhost] joined #board-meeting
  59 16:29  bdmc> Thank you.   Welcome Frederic.  We started 15 minutes ago.
  60 16:30  bdmc> Moving on to Item 2.1.2 -- Paperwork for the Australian OFT.
  61 16:30  bdmc> Etienne:  How did your conversation after church go?
  62 16:30  Etienne> I am in contact with a barrister. It is ongoing.
  63 16:31  FD> Good evening everybody. There is a storm here, returning at home has been more hazardous than usual.
  64 16:31  bdmc> That's all that we can do.
  65 16:33  bdmc> Item 2.1.3 -- Updates regarding new Fingerprints
  66 16:33  Etienne> @bdmc: as soon as you get an e-mail "Mass letter full text" we can discuss it. Until then, please go one.
  67 16:33  bdmc> Etienne: Thank you.
  68 16:33  Etienne> I did it befor the meeting on github. It is pending (pull request - who can do that?)
  69 16:34  Etienne> Probabely Ted?
  70 16:34  Etienne> I will ask him.
  71 16:34  bdmc> FD and I were in a meeting earlier, and Ted, Gero and FD checked in various places, and thought that all of that work had been completed, but perhaps I misunderstood.
  72 16:35  bdmc> Etienne: Yes, I would think that Ted would be the proper person.
  73 16:35  Etienne> I saw bug 1533 and looked in old bugs and wiki pages what was done in old times.
  74 16:35  Etienne> OK
  75 16:36  bdmc> Moving on again:  Item 2.2 -- Etienne, you said that you had Signer news.
  76 16:37  Etienne> Yes, in fact bad news. Since last friday, there is an issue: no certs. Dirk is aware of it since two days, as no one told us.
  77 16:38  Etienne> In between, JanDD created an alert and Dirk has to travel again to Ede. Scheduled for Aug. 16.
  78 16:38  Etienne> egal will be with us as soon as possible as he has some visitors tonight.
  79 16:39  bdmc> Thank you, I guess.
  80 16:40  bdmc> Item 2.3 -- Background Check -- We were talking to Ted and Dirk earlier, and proposed that Gero be given the Background Check and they agreed to do so, after the 23rd.
  81 16:40  mcr> hello. Sorry to be late.
  82 16:40  bdmc> mcr: Welcome to the party.
  83 16:40  mcr> I was actually playing with my son.  (Who is not so little)
  84 16:40  bdmc> We are at Item 2.3.
  85 16:41  Etienne> Welcome. Playing in family is important.
  86 16:41  bdmc> Anything else for 2.3, or should I move on?
  87 16:41  Etienne> Do we need a motion or will that be done just so?
  88 16:41  FD> Live temporary notepad to draft the minutes in real time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/156JZeyHjU9M91O8pIUwdUo6u-FiBlhJJVo4Fcq7QM6U/edit?usp=sharing
  89 16:42  bdmc> I don't think that the board needs to get involved with every candidate.
  90 16:42  Etienne> Great.
  91 16:42  bdmc> Other thoughts, anybody?
  92 16:43  sat> we had motion m20210701.1: New community background check for that last time
  93 16:43  sat> i guess there is no need for another one
  94 16:44  bdmc> OK.  I am looking at Items 2.4 and 2.5.  Do we need to look at them, or move past them?
  95 16:44  Etienne> 2.5. Good news: OTRS access are granted now.
  96 16:45  bdmc> Yes, that is good news.
  97 16:45  bdmc> OK, Item 2.6.x -- Finances.
  98 16:45  bdmc> mcr: You're up. 
  99 16:46  mcr> Hi.
 100 16:46  mcr> a) https://cacert-fin.sandelman.ca/ is alive, is running ledgersmb.  Thank you Wojcaw for setting that up.  
 101 16:46  bdmc> Status and is there anything more that the Board needs to get involved with?
 102 16:46  mcr> b) there is a chart of accounts created, with the 6? bank accounts.
 103 16:47  bdmc> c?
 104 16:47  mcr> c) I have bank statements from Westpac A and B.  (and accounts numbers).   I have started reconciling from 2020-06-01 onwards.
 105 16:47  bdmc> That is great news.  When Dirk gets here, I will make a mental note.
 106 16:47  mcr> I have made contact with a few other people., including Frederic (old treasurer), but we haven't done the screen share to get paypal access yet.  I expect to do this within the week.
 107 16:48  mcr> I don't know how the SecureU account has been reconciled.
 108 16:48  bdmc> That's what I will ask Dirk.
 109 16:48  mcr> I don't have a clear idea on expenses yet.
 110 16:48  mcr> questions?
 111 16:48  bdmc> Fortunately, they are few and far between.
 112 16:48  bdmc> If I remember correctly, the hosting bill is semi-annual.
 113 16:49  mcr> I expect to do a preliminary 2020/2021 P&L and balance sheet by the end of August.  That should be plenty of time for November AGM.  
 114 16:49  bdmc> Even more good news.
 115 16:49  mcr> Kevin (?I think it was?) will attempt to get me access to Westpac accounts, I need to identify myself to the bank first.  I don't know how to do that yet. 
 116 16:50  bdmc> I hope that it doesn't mean a trip to London ( the other one ).
 117 16:50  mcr> I am considering if I will open Mantis tickets against myself to remember each part, but also to probably record the things that were done.
 118 16:51  Etienne> You go to the nearest westpac branch. There are a lot in New south wales, one in London (UK), maybe more elsewhere.
 119 16:51  bdmc> Create a new classification to cover non-software?
 120 16:51  bdmc> Etienne: Michael is in Canada.
 121 16:51  Etienne> I now.
 122 16:51  egal> @etienne ... for the week starting at august 16 ...
 123 16:51  egal> (win 1
 124 16:51  mcr> Etienne, so maybe I won't get to identify myself until I'm in London :-)
 125 16:52  mcr> I'm done.
 126 16:52  bdmc> Thank you.
 127 16:52  bdmc> egal:  ????
 128 16:53  egal> sorry ... wanted to ping etienne privately while reading the logs ...
 129 16:53  egal> hi
 130 16:53  bdmc> egal: How soon might it be possible to get some information from our "trust" account with Secure-U?
 131 16:56  Etienne> @mcr: https://www.westpac.com.au/about-westpac/global-locations/ (Papua, Hong Kong, but nothing in the Americas)
 132 16:57  egal> finished reading the log ... ;-)
 133 16:57  mcr> I always wanted to visit Hong Kong, but prior to 1997.
 134 16:58  mcr> are we done with finance report?
 135 16:58  bdmc> mcr:  Off the wall, but I wonder whether they would accept an "introduction" from the Embassy?
 136 16:58  Etienne> @egal: How soon might it be possible to get some information from our "trust" account with Secure-U?
 137 16:59  bdmc> mcr: I was hoping that Dirk would answer.
 138 16:59  egal> regarding westpac: you need to travel to a westpac-office to get authenticated ... a person already onsite having access to the account will be a great help ...
 139 16:59  bdmc> FD: Who was that person in Perth who helped with the Paypal issue?
 140 16:59  egal> currently we're still limited to AU residents for westpac as my access was never granted by AU members to me ... ;-(
 141 17:00  egal> (there had been two tries, which failed ... ;-( )
 142 17:00  Etienne> Bret - he can help as soone as CAcert is delisted from NSW's association register. I am hurrying on doing that.
 143 17:01  bdmc> Westpac needs to wait for that?
 144 17:02  bdmc> Also, who exactly have access to the CAcert Westpac accounts?  ( "owners" )
 145 17:02  Etienne> As I asked Bret if he is willing to be part of the finance team, he agreed with this condition.
 146 17:02  Etienne> Access: Kevin and Peter M.
 147 17:03  egal> iang?
 148 17:03  egal> (but iang has to rights to add new members ... ;-( )
 149 17:03  bdmc> Right, so one of them has to "add users" to that account?  OK.  I will try sending Peter M. a note.
 150 17:03  egal> ... has no rights ...
 151 17:04  egal> kevin has the right to add new members to the account, peter i don't know
 152 17:04  bdmc> I can only ask.
 153 17:04  Etienne> @bdmc: adding a new user works only if the new users went to a branche office before/after. Westpac staff has to see him first for one time.
 154 17:05  mcr> Hi, so to summarize what I just said verbally to Frederic.  I have to identify myself to the bank.  Maybe there are ways to do that without showing up, but let's assume not.  I anticipate being in London in the next 9 months.
 155 17:05  mcr> Then Kevin or Peter Moulding has to grant me access, and pass me some token, and I have 10 minutes to catch the token.
 156 17:05  egal> @mcr it may be necessary to show up on-site in london together with iang or me ...
 157 17:05  bdmc> I wonder whether that could be made to coincide with a trip of Ian's?
 158 17:06  mcr> egal, I don't think so, based upon what I understand, but we could sort things out.
 159 17:06  mcr> Maybe showing up together can *also* work though.
 160 17:06  mcr> Then Peter/Kevin don't have to do stuff.
 161 17:06  bdmc> Especially with the 12 hour difference.
 162 17:06  mcr> egal, how do I get SecureU statements to reconcile?
 163 17:07  mcr> 12 hour difference is no biggie.  10pm Canada is 10am there.
 164 17:07  bdmc> Right, but I was thinking of being in the bank in London.
 165 17:07  mcr> obiwan-[projects/cacert/finance](2.6.6) mcr 10042 %ls -1 *.pdf
 166 17:07  mcr> 2020-07-31-westpac-256.pdf
 167 17:07  mcr> 2020-07-31-westpac-264.pdf
 168 17:07  mcr> 2020-10-30-westpac-256.pdf
 169 17:07  mcr> 2020-10-30-westpac-264.pdf
 170 17:07  mcr> 2021-01-29-westpac-256.pdf
 171 17:07  mcr> 2021-01-29-westpac-264.pdf
 172 17:07  mcr> 2021-04-30-westpac-256.pdf
 173 17:07  mcr> 2021-04-30-westpac-264.pdf
 174 17:09  mcr> 256 - regular account (~$800). 264 is savings account (~$2500)
 175 17:09  egal> need to summarize them ... but we should discuss this via tg during the weekend ...
 176 17:09  mcr> actually, $971 and $2900
 177 17:10  bdmc> egal: Ideally, I would think that Michael would need an opening balance as of the end of May 2020, and then every transaction thereafter, but the two of you can work it out.
 178 17:10  mcr> why do they need summarizing?  Ideally, you'd hit print, and then black out any line items you don't want me to see.
 179 17:12  mcr> I have bank accounts: Westpac A1 - 180256,   Westpac A2 - 180264,  Paypal B1,   Graubündner Kantonalbank,    SecureU In Trust  
 180 17:16  mcr> I don't have a contact for  Graubündner Kantonalbank, but I hope that Frédéric Grither.
 181 17:16  mcr> will help.
 182 17:16  bdmc> mcr: I think that that is Etienne, isn't it?
 183 17:17  mcr> I have heard that it might be Etienne, but I haven't heard Etienne agree :-)
 184 17:17  Etienne> That is my task for the following days (I came back from holyday just some hours ago)
 185 17:17  bdmc> OK, unless there is anything more right now, I will move on.
 186 17:18  Etienne> Frédéric G cannot speak alemanic with them, but I can. So its 7x easier.
 187 17:18  bdmc> Etienne: I thought that that was the Swiss account that you opened.
 188 17:19  mcr> I'm really done.
 189 17:19  bdmc> mcr: Do you also have the bank in Switzerland?
 190 17:19  Etienne> @bdmc yes
 191 17:19  bdmc> OK,  done.
 192 17:19  mcr> Apparently, I don't have that in my Chart of Accounts, so I'll need to add that as Etienne gives me some details.
 193 17:20  Etienne> Graubündner Kantonalbank = "the bank in Switzerland"
 194 17:20  bdmc> B-)
 195 17:20  bdmc> Thank you
 196 17:21  mcr> Chart updated.
 197 17:21  bdmc> Item 2.7.x -- Software -- I have nothing to report on any of these, but expect to be able to do so next month.
 198 17:21  bdmc> Item 2.8 -- Org Assurance -- Anything here, or are we moving on?
 199 17:22  Etienne> Moving on if Guy is not here.
 200 17:22  bdmc> OK, Item 2.9.x -- FD, I think that these are yours.
 201 17:22  egal> regarding org assurances and TTP it seems, that (nearly) nobody is taking the tickets in OTRS ... ,-(
 202 17:23  egal> maybe you should try to activate org-assurers and TTP again ...
 203 17:23  egal> (unfortunately i'm not a big help there as i never did TTP or org assurances)
 204 17:24  bdmc> Sounds like a good idea.  I seem to remember a project to try and clean up the OTRS backlog of junk.
 205 17:24  Etienne> Yes, that is the idea. We have a board member who is OrgAr. I try to make him to relaunch OrgA as he can do this on his own and he does not linkes English meetings.
 206 17:25  bdmc> Moving on to Item 3.1 -- Blockchain -- Anybody want to talk about this, or wait until next meeting?
 207 17:25  FD> Regarding 2.7 - Software, we could give a short feedback of the meeting we had earlier in the day.
 208 17:26  bdmc> I mentioned that earlier, perhaps before you came.
 209 17:27  FD> 3.1 Should just be discarded from the agenda. This blockchain topic is something none of us has never been working on.
 210 17:28  bdmc> However, several of us involved with Software development had a good meeting earlier, and agreed to try and clean up the backlog of "trash" in Mantis.  As well, we talked about trying to get one or more software tasks accomplished.
 211 17:29  bdmc> We are having problems recruiting volunteers for both Infrastructure and Software Development.
 212 17:30  bdmc> We are well past the time limit that we agreed upon when we started this meeting, so, unless there is anything else, I will as for "Questions."
 213 17:30  bdmc> ( as = ask )
 214 17:31  Etienne> That is why I propsed for the CCA mass mail as PS: "PS. A small core team of volunteers is currently updating important parts of our software. If you would like to support them with time or a donation:
 215 17:31  Etienne> Time: https://lists.cacert.org/wws/info/cacert-devel (subscribe, read and get involved)"
 216 17:32  Etienne> I resent the full text of the CCA mass mail earlyer today. The last two paragraphs ("Why?") are new. Any objections?
 217 17:33  bdmc> Hmmm.  I am open to discussion, but, unfortunately, I think that this is "off topic" for that message.  I am willing to be convinced otherwise.
 218 17:35  Etienne> Or you send your comments to me within the next 48 or 72 hours.
 219 17:35  FD> OK
 220 17:36  FD> Regarding 2.7 - Software Development, here is what I wrote in the live notepad:
 221 17:36  FD> The short-term objectives of the software development team are
 222 17:36  FD> to identify ten or so tickets to work on by the end of the year, and to clean up tickets that are clearly not useful today. Brian and Gero are working together on this.
 223 17:36  FD> Modifying the user front-end and back-end of the CAcert web application, to allow users to upload .p10 CSR certificates in binary format, in addition to the ability to copy and paste .p10 CSR certificates in base64 "text" format.
 224 17:36  FD> Supporting Gero in its plan to carry out code reviews prior to validation, which includes assessing his background as well as his skills.
 225 17:40  mcr> what is OTRS used? Is that public facing?  While Mantis is internal?
 226 17:41  egal> mantis is bugtracker (for software)
 227 17:41  FD> Guys, vave we gone through the whole agenda that we wanted to deal with?
 228 17:41  egal> otrs is user request tickets (nothing for software)
 229 17:43  bdmc> FD: couple more items.
 230 17:43  bdmc> According to the Agenda, our next meeting is on September 2nd.  All agree?
 231 17:45  egal> aeh ... i still have a question
 232 17:45  bdmc> egal: Go for it!
 233 17:45  egal> (which i raised before via telegram ...
 234 17:45  egal> our domains needs to be extended for some time ...
 235 17:45  egal> in TG i posted the price for the domains if extended for one year or five years ...
 236 17:46  bdmc> Oh, you mean it is time to renew the registration?
 237 17:46  egal> ... or if we move to another registrar (from NL: gkg to germany: joker) ...
 238 17:46  bdmc> Is the cost simply five times, or is there a discount?
 239 17:47  egal> there is a discount if extended for five years at gkg
 240 17:48  bdmc> And the price difference for changing registrar?
 241 17:48  egal> at joker it's cheaper (even for yearly renew) ... and "subusers" can be added to the interface
 242 17:48  FD> In any case, the amounts involved are extremely small. I recommend to choose the registrar with the best reputation, and protected by the best national legislation, whatever its price, and to renew the domains for 5 years.
 243 17:48  bdmc> I agree. 
 244 17:48  mcr> agree
 245 17:49  egal> for 15+ years my domains are at joker.com ... never had issues there ...
 246 17:49  bdmc> Shall I propose a motion?  What is the deadline?
 247 17:49  egal> deadline is early september ...
 248 17:49  bdmc> So we need to do this now, really.  September meeting would be days before the deadline.
 249 17:50  egal> so no need to hurry during this meeting ... a motion (or agreement) being done before the next board-meeting would be fine (in case there are issues with payment)
 250 17:51  egal> (board-motions can be done at any time ... not only during board-meetings ... ;-) )
 251 17:51  bdmc> True, but we are here now.
 252 17:51  FD> Michael known gkg and is quite positive about them. Michael, could you elaborate a bit you opinion?
 253 17:52  mcr> my comment is that wherever we go, we need a single login that the board manages, so there are no savings in having it in one place with other domains.
 254 17:52  mcr> (savings in time)
 255 17:52  mcr> gkg was great, I used them for years, but then they couldn't support .ca, and I had to change.
 256 17:53  bdmc> I have been a customer of Register4Less for many years, myself.
 257 17:53  bdmc> Motion now, or some other time?
 258 17:54  egal> up to now i wasn't able to move from wytze to "somebody else" as their interface seems not to accept german addresses ...
 259 17:54  bdmc> That's awkward.
 260 17:54  egal> not now ... let's discuss it via TG in the next days and create a motion i a week or so ...
 261 17:55  bdmc> OK.  I suppose that that means that I must log on to TG.
 262 17:55  egal> we may talk via jitsi on wednesday ... ;-)
 263 17:55  bdmc> B-)
 264 17:56  bdmc> OK, anybody with anything else?   Etienne and I are talking about the e-mail message, and we may change it again, but it really does need to go out soon.
 265 17:56  egal> @mcr board should not have access to the nameservers or registrar ... it's in focus of critical team
 266 17:57  FD> So good night, guys. Minutes are already writen here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/156JZeyHjU9M91O8pIUwdUo6u-FiBlhJJVo4Fcq7QM6U/edit Brian, you joined first the IRC channel, could you copy-paste le log of the meeting at the end of the minutes?
 267 17:57  bdmc> Certainly.
 268 17:58  bdmc> In that case, I will call this meeting finished, and see you all in a month.
 269 17:58  egal> ... or earlier in jitsi or TG .. ;-)
 270 17:58  FD> Right.
 271 17:59  bdmc> Good night, all.
 272 17:59  FD> Dirk, could you prepare raw statements of our deposits at Secure-U, for Michael ?
 273 17:59  Etienne> good night
 274 18:01  FD> See you, all!
 275 18:01 - FD [50521814@localhost] left #board-meeting ()
 276 18:10 = Etienne [00000000@localhost] quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand-crafted IRC client)