--- Log opened Thu Aug 05 15:57:19 2021
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16:01  Etienne> Hello
16:01  bdmc> Greetings
16:01  bdmc> Do you think we should wait for more people, or get started anyway?
16:02  Etienne> I am sorry, I am late; just worked on bug 1533.
16:02  bdmc> That's a good thing.
16:02  Etienne> Are we 3?
16:02  bdmc> I'm not sure which of us is "real."
16:02  bdmc> I know that the two of us are.
16:03  Etienne> I suppose, bdmc should be real :-)
16:03  bdmc> B-)
16:04  Etienne> One more would be nice.
16:04  bdmc> Well, start at XX:15?
16:05  bdmc> While we are waiting, did you not receive my request for the final copy of the message that we are planning to send to the members?
16:06  Etienne> If you like. I hope, it willl not be to long, as I went by train for five hours today (always wearing a mask).
16:07  Etienne> That one from March?
16:09  bdmc> Was that one train or did you change?
16:09  bdmc> Yes, I know that there were changes after I saw it the first time.
16:12  Etienne> I took your version, but we skipped from the PS, PPS, .... the account from secureU (remaining only CAcert's), skipped the line, that we are looking for people for the finance team. Then is the proposition (sent by mail in july) to ad as PPS why we moved to Europe.
16:13  bdmc> Right, so I wanted to see the what text was finally created.
16:14  bdmc> Was your trip more than 500km?
16:14  sat> good evening, good day
16:14  Etienne> Mail from 30.07.21 at 00:15 "Re: Massenversand"
16:14  bdmc> Welcome.  Long time no talk!
16:14  Etienne> Hello sat, nice to see you here.
16:15  bdmc> Etienne: I didn'think that that had the finished copy.
16:15  bdmc> Since we are three, I hereby call this meeting to order.
16:15  sat> I'll be here for 45 minutes.
16:16  bdmc> sat: Etienne doesn't want to be too long, either.
16:16  bdmc> So, Item 1.4 -- anything in the mailing lists that we need to discuss?
16:17  Etienne> Not in the mailing list, but I added one hour before an important item: Infrastructure (new issues with the signer)
16:18  bdmc> Alright.  Do want to discuss it now, or wait until later in the agenda?
16:18  sat> Regarding Nextcloud (which is not in the agenda, but was topic in the ML):
16:19  sat> I am currently waiting for the firewall adjustment
16:19  Etienne> Who will do this adjustement?
16:19  sat> I don't know
16:19  bdmc> Unfortunately, we don't have anybody currently here who has that knowledge.
16:20  bdmc> I think that I heard that Dirk and Jan would be doing it together.
16:20  Etienne> Thank you.
16:21  bdmc> Moving on -- Item 1.5 -- the Minutes from July 6th.  Any discussion?
16:21  sat> As soon as I can log in I'll start installing NC.
16:21  bdmc> sat: That will be great.
16:22  Etienne> I move to accept the Minutes from July 6th, 2021.
16:23  sat> I second that
16:23  Etienne> aye
16:23  bdmc> Sorry, Etienne.  I got the date wrong.  It was the 1st, but otherwise, I will take that motion and vote Aye.
16:24  Etienne> Oh, thank you. I will correct it.
16:24  sat> I second again and vote AYE
16:24  bdmc> In the Agenda it is correct.
16:25  bdmc> Next, Item 2.1.1 -- CCA change notice to members. -- Etienne and I were discussing this just before this meeting.
16:25  bdmc> As soon as I see the final text, I would be happy to sign and send it.
16:26  bdmc> Do I understand that Dirk is ready to send it, too?
16:28  Etienne> Yes, Dirk is. I am just trying to share it with you.
16:29 + FD [50521814@localhost] joined #board-meeting
16:29  bdmc> Thank you.   Welcome Frederic.  We started 15 minutes ago.
16:30  bdmc> Moving on to Item 2.1.2 -- Paperwork for the Australian OFT.
16:30  bdmc> Etienne:  How did your conversation after church go?
16:30  Etienne> I am in contact with a barrister. It is ongoing.
16:31  FD> Good evening everybody. There is a storm here, returning at home has been more hazardous than usual.
16:31  bdmc> That's all that we can do.
16:33  bdmc> Item 2.1.3 -- Updates regarding new Fingerprints
16:33  Etienne> @bdmc: as soon as you get an e-mail "Mass letter full text" we can discuss it. Until then, please go one.
16:33  bdmc> Etienne: Thank you.
16:33  Etienne> I did it befor the meeting on github. It is pending (pull request - who can do that?)
16:34  Etienne> Probabely Ted?
16:34  Etienne> I will ask him.
16:34  bdmc> FD and I were in a meeting earlier, and Ted, Gero and FD checked in various places, and thought that all of that work had been completed, but perhaps I misunderstood.
16:35  bdmc> Etienne: Yes, I would think that Ted would be the proper person.
16:35  Etienne> I saw bug 1533 and looked in old bugs and wiki pages what was done in old times.
16:35  Etienne> OK
16:36  bdmc> Moving on again:  Item 2.2 -- Etienne, you said that you had Signer news.
16:37  Etienne> Yes, in fact bad news. Since last friday, there is an issue: no certs. Dirk is aware of it since two days, as no one told us.
16:38  Etienne> In between, JanDD created an alert and Dirk has to travel again to Ede. Scheduled for Aug. 16.
16:38  Etienne> egal will be with us as soon as possible as he has some visitors tonight.
16:39  bdmc> Thank you, I guess.
16:40  bdmc> Item 2.3 -- Background Check -- We were talking to Ted and Dirk earlier, and proposed that Gero be given the Background Check and they agreed to do so, after the 23rd.
16:40  mcr> hello. Sorry to be late.
16:40  bdmc> mcr: Welcome to the party.
16:40  mcr> I was actually playing with my son.  (Who is not so little)
16:40  bdmc> We are at Item 2.3.
16:41  Etienne> Welcome. Playing in family is important.
16:41  bdmc> Anything else for 2.3, or should I move on?
16:41  Etienne> Do we need a motion or will that be done just so?
16:41  FD> Live temporary notepad to draft the minutes in real time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/156JZeyHjU9M91O8pIUwdUo6u-FiBlhJJVo4Fcq7QM6U/edit?usp=sharing
16:42  bdmc> I don't think that the board needs to get involved with every candidate.
16:42  Etienne> Great.
16:42  bdmc> Other thoughts, anybody?
16:43  sat> we had motion m20210701.1: New community background check for that last time
16:43  sat> i guess there is no need for another one
16:44  bdmc> OK.  I am looking at Items 2.4 and 2.5.  Do we need to look at them, or move past them?
16:44  Etienne> 2.5. Good news: OTRS access are granted now.
16:45  bdmc> Yes, that is good news.
16:45  bdmc> OK, Item 2.6.x -- Finances.
16:45  bdmc> mcr: You're up. 
16:46  mcr> Hi.
16:46  mcr> a) https://cacert-fin.sandelman.ca/ is alive, is running ledgersmb.  Thank you Wojcaw for setting that up.  
16:46  bdmc> Status and is there anything more that the Board needs to get involved with?
16:46  mcr> b) there is a chart of accounts created, with the 6? bank accounts.
16:47  bdmc> c?
16:47  mcr> c) I have bank statements from Westpac A and B.  (and accounts numbers).   I have started reconciling from 2020-06-01 onwards.
16:47  bdmc> That is great news.  When Dirk gets here, I will make a mental note.
16:47  mcr> I have made contact with a few other people., including Frederic (old treasurer), but we haven't done the screen share to get paypal access yet.  I expect to do this within the week.
16:48  mcr> I don't know how the SecureU account has been reconciled.
16:48  bdmc> That's what I will ask Dirk.
16:48  mcr> I don't have a clear idea on expenses yet.
16:48  mcr> questions?
16:48  bdmc> Fortunately, they are few and far between.
16:48  bdmc> If I remember correctly, the hosting bill is semi-annual.
16:49  mcr> I expect to do a preliminary 2020/2021 P&L and balance sheet by the end of August.  That should be plenty of time for November AGM.  
16:49  bdmc> Even more good news.
16:49  mcr> Kevin (?I think it was?) will attempt to get me access to Westpac accounts, I need to identify myself to the bank first.  I don't know how to do that yet. 
16:50  bdmc> I hope that it doesn't mean a trip to London ( the other one ).
16:50  mcr> I am considering if I will open Mantis tickets against myself to remember each part, but also to probably record the things that were done.
16:51  Etienne> You go to the nearest westpac branch. There are a lot in New south wales, one in London (UK), maybe more elsewhere.
16:51  bdmc> Create a new classification to cover non-software?
16:51  bdmc> Etienne: Michael is in Canada.
16:51  Etienne> I now.
16:51  egal> @etienne ... for the week starting at august 16 ...
16:51  egal> (win 1
16:51  mcr> Etienne, so maybe I won't get to identify myself until I'm in London :-)
16:52  mcr> I'm done.
16:52  bdmc> Thank you.
16:52  bdmc> egal:  ????
16:53  egal> sorry ... wanted to ping etienne privately while reading the logs ...
16:53  egal> hi
16:53  bdmc> egal: How soon might it be possible to get some information from our "trust" account with Secure-U?
16:56  Etienne> @mcr: https://www.westpac.com.au/about-westpac/global-locations/ (Papua, Hong Kong, but nothing in the Americas)
16:57  egal> finished reading the log ... ;-)
16:57  mcr> I always wanted to visit Hong Kong, but prior to 1997.
16:58  mcr> are we done with finance report?
16:58  bdmc> mcr:  Off the wall, but I wonder whether they would accept an "introduction" from the Embassy?
16:58  Etienne> @egal: How soon might it be possible to get some information from our "trust" account with Secure-U?
16:59  bdmc> mcr: I was hoping that Dirk would answer.
16:59  egal> regarding westpac: you need to travel to a westpac-office to get authenticated ... a person already onsite having access to the account will be a great help ...
16:59  bdmc> FD: Who was that person in Perth who helped with the Paypal issue?
16:59  egal> currently we're still limited to AU residents for westpac as my access was never granted by AU members to me ... ;-(
17:00  egal> (there had been two tries, which failed ... ;-( )
17:00  Etienne> Bret - he can help as soone as CAcert is delisted from NSW's association register. I am hurrying on doing that.
17:01  bdmc> Westpac needs to wait for that?
17:02  bdmc> Also, who exactly have access to the CAcert Westpac accounts?  ( "owners" )
17:02  Etienne> As I asked Bret if he is willing to be part of the finance team, he agreed with this condition.
17:02  Etienne> Access: Kevin and Peter M.
17:03  egal> iang?
17:03  egal> (but iang has to rights to add new members ... ;-( )
17:03  bdmc> Right, so one of them has to "add users" to that account?  OK.  I will try sending Peter M. a note.
17:03  egal> ... has no rights ...
17:04  egal> kevin has the right to add new members to the account, peter i don't know
17:04  bdmc> I can only ask.
17:04  Etienne> @bdmc: adding a new user works only if the new users went to a branche office before/after. Westpac staff has to see him first for one time.
17:05  mcr> Hi, so to summarize what I just said verbally to Frederic.  I have to identify myself to the bank.  Maybe there are ways to do that without showing up, but let's assume not.  I anticipate being in London in the next 9 months.
17:05  mcr> Then Kevin or Peter Moulding has to grant me access, and pass me some token, and I have 10 minutes to catch the token.
17:05  egal> @mcr it may be necessary to show up on-site in london together with iang or me ...
17:05  bdmc> I wonder whether that could be made to coincide with a trip of Ian's?
17:06  mcr> egal, I don't think so, based upon what I understand, but we could sort things out.
17:06  mcr> Maybe showing up together can *also* work though.
17:06  mcr> Then Peter/Kevin don't have to do stuff.
17:06  bdmc> Especially with the 12 hour difference.
17:06  mcr> egal, how do I get SecureU statements to reconcile?
17:07  mcr> 12 hour difference is no biggie.  10pm Canada is 10am there.
17:07  bdmc> Right, but I was thinking of being in the bank in London.
17:07  mcr> obiwan-[projects/cacert/finance](2.6.6) mcr 10042 %ls -1 *.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2020-07-31-westpac-256.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2020-07-31-westpac-264.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2020-10-30-westpac-256.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2020-10-30-westpac-264.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2021-01-29-westpac-256.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2021-01-29-westpac-264.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2021-04-30-westpac-256.pdf
17:07  mcr> 2021-04-30-westpac-264.pdf
17:09  mcr> 256 - regular account (~$800). 264 is savings account (~$2500)
17:09  egal> need to summarize them ... but we should discuss this via tg during the weekend ...
17:09  mcr> actually, $971 and $2900
17:10  bdmc> egal: Ideally, I would think that Michael would need an opening balance as of the end of May 2020, and then every transaction thereafter, but the two of you can work it out.
17:10  mcr> why do they need summarizing?  Ideally, you'd hit print, and then black out any line items you don't want me to see.
17:12  mcr> I have bank accounts: Westpac A1 - 180256,   Westpac A2 - 180264,  Paypal B1,   Graubündner Kantonalbank,    SecureU In Trust  
17:16  mcr> I don't have a contact for  Graubündner Kantonalbank, but I hope that Frédéric Grither.
17:16  mcr> will help.
17:16  bdmc> mcr: I think that that is Etienne, isn't it?
17:17  mcr> I have heard that it might be Etienne, but I haven't heard Etienne agree :-)
17:17  Etienne> That is my task for the following days (I came back from holyday just some hours ago)
17:17  bdmc> OK, unless there is anything more right now, I will move on.
17:18  Etienne> Frédéric G cannot speak alemanic with them, but I can. So its 7x easier.
17:18  bdmc> Etienne: I thought that that was the Swiss account that you opened.
17:19  mcr> I'm really done.
17:19  bdmc> mcr: Do you also have the bank in Switzerland?
17:19  Etienne> @bdmc yes
17:19  bdmc> OK,  done.
17:19  mcr> Apparently, I don't have that in my Chart of Accounts, so I'll need to add that as Etienne gives me some details.
17:20  Etienne> Graubündner Kantonalbank = "the bank in Switzerland"
17:20  bdmc> B-)
17:20  bdmc> Thank you
17:21  mcr> Chart updated.
17:21  bdmc> Item 2.7.x -- Software -- I have nothing to report on any of these, but expect to be able to do so next month.
17:21  bdmc> Item 2.8 -- Org Assurance -- Anything here, or are we moving on?
17:22  Etienne> Moving on if Guy is not here.
17:22  bdmc> OK, Item 2.9.x -- FD, I think that these are yours.
17:22  egal> regarding org assurances and TTP it seems, that (nearly) nobody is taking the tickets in OTRS ... ,-(
17:23  egal> maybe you should try to activate org-assurers and TTP again ...
17:23  egal> (unfortunately i'm not a big help there as i never did TTP or org assurances)
17:24  bdmc> Sounds like a good idea.  I seem to remember a project to try and clean up the OTRS backlog of junk.
17:24  Etienne> Yes, that is the idea. We have a board member who is OrgAr. I try to make him to relaunch OrgA as he can do this on his own and he does not linkes English meetings.
17:25  bdmc> Moving on to Item 3.1 -- Blockchain -- Anybody want to talk about this, or wait until next meeting?
17:25  FD> Regarding 2.7 - Software, we could give a short feedback of the meeting we had earlier in the day.
17:26  bdmc> I mentioned that earlier, perhaps before you came.
17:27  FD> 3.1 Should just be discarded from the agenda. This blockchain topic is something none of us has never been working on.
17:28  bdmc> However, several of us involved with Software development had a good meeting earlier, and agreed to try and clean up the backlog of "trash" in Mantis.  As well, we talked about trying to get one or more software tasks accomplished.
17:29  bdmc> We are having problems recruiting volunteers for both Infrastructure and Software Development.
17:30  bdmc> We are well past the time limit that we agreed upon when we started this meeting, so, unless there is anything else, I will as for "Questions."
17:30  bdmc> ( as = ask )
17:31  Etienne> That is why I propsed for the CCA mass mail as PS: "PS. A small core team of volunteers is currently updating important parts of our software. If you would like to support them with time or a donation:
17:31  Etienne> Time: https://lists.cacert.org/wws/info/cacert-devel (subscribe, read and get involved)"
17:32  Etienne> I resent the full text of the CCA mass mail earlyer today. The last two paragraphs ("Why?") are new. Any objections?
17:33  bdmc> Hmmm.  I am open to discussion, but, unfortunately, I think that this is "off topic" for that message.  I am willing to be convinced otherwise.
17:35  Etienne> Or you send your comments to me within the next 48 or 72 hours.
17:35  FD> OK
17:36  FD> Regarding 2.7 - Software Development, here is what I wrote in the live notepad:
17:36  FD> The short-term objectives of the software development team are
17:36  FD> to identify ten or so tickets to work on by the end of the year, and to clean up tickets that are clearly not useful today. Brian and Gero are working together on this.
17:36  FD> Modifying the user front-end and back-end of the CAcert web application, to allow users to upload .p10 CSR certificates in binary format, in addition to the ability to copy and paste .p10 CSR certificates in base64 "text" format.
17:36  FD> Supporting Gero in its plan to carry out code reviews prior to validation, which includes assessing his background as well as his skills.
17:40  mcr> what is OTRS used? Is that public facing?  While Mantis is internal?
17:41  egal> mantis is bugtracker (for software)
17:41  FD> Guys, vave we gone through the whole agenda that we wanted to deal with?
17:41  egal> otrs is user request tickets (nothing for software)
17:43  bdmc> FD: couple more items.
17:43  bdmc> According to the Agenda, our next meeting is on September 2nd.  All agree?
17:45  egal> aeh ... i still have a question
17:45  bdmc> egal: Go for it!
17:45  egal> (which i raised before via telegram ...
17:45  egal> our domains needs to be extended for some time ...
17:45  egal> in TG i posted the price for the domains if extended for one year or five years ...
17:46  bdmc> Oh, you mean it is time to renew the registration?
17:46  egal> ... or if we move to another registrar (from NL: gkg to germany: joker) ...
17:46  bdmc> Is the cost simply five times, or is there a discount?
17:47  egal> there is a discount if extended for five years at gkg
17:48  bdmc> And the price difference for changing registrar?
17:48  egal> at joker it's cheaper (even for yearly renew) ... and "subusers" can be added to the interface
17:48  FD> In any case, the amounts involved are extremely small. I recommend to choose the registrar with the best reputation, and protected by the best national legislation, whatever its price, and to renew the domains for 5 years.
17:48  bdmc> I agree. 
17:48  mcr> agree
17:49  egal> for 15+ years my domains are at joker.com ... never had issues there ...
17:49  bdmc> Shall I propose a motion?  What is the deadline?
17:49  egal> deadline is early september ...
17:49  bdmc> So we need to do this now, really.  September meeting would be days before the deadline.
17:50  egal> so no need to hurry during this meeting ... a motion (or agreement) being done before the next board-meeting would be fine (in case there are issues with payment)
17:51  egal> (board-motions can be done at any time ... not only during board-meetings ... ;-) )
17:51  bdmc> True, but we are here now.
17:51  FD> Michael known gkg and is quite positive about them. Michael, could you elaborate a bit you opinion?
17:52  mcr> my comment is that wherever we go, we need a single login that the board manages, so there are no savings in having it in one place with other domains.
17:52  mcr> (savings in time)
17:52  mcr> gkg was great, I used them for years, but then they couldn't support .ca, and I had to change.
17:53  bdmc> I have been a customer of Register4Less for many years, myself.
17:53  bdmc> Motion now, or some other time?
17:54  egal> up to now i wasn't able to move from wytze to "somebody else" as their interface seems not to accept german addresses ...
17:54  bdmc> That's awkward.
17:54  egal> not now ... let's discuss it via TG in the next days and create a motion i a week or so ...
17:55  bdmc> OK.  I suppose that that means that I must log on to TG.
17:55  egal> we may talk via jitsi on wednesday ... ;-)
17:55  bdmc> B-)
17:56  bdmc> OK, anybody with anything else?   Etienne and I are talking about the e-mail message, and we may change it again, but it really does need to go out soon.
17:56  egal> @mcr board should not have access to the nameservers or registrar ... it's in focus of critical team
17:57  FD> So good night, guys. Minutes are already writen here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/156JZeyHjU9M91O8pIUwdUo6u-FiBlhJJVo4Fcq7QM6U/edit Brian, you joined first the IRC channel, could you copy-paste le log of the meeting at the end of the minutes?
17:57  bdmc> Certainly.
17:58  bdmc> In that case, I will call this meeting finished, and see you all in a month.
17:58  egal> ... or earlier in jitsi or TG .. ;-)
17:58  FD> Right.
17:59  bdmc> Good night, all.
17:59  FD> Dirk, could you prepare raw statements of our deposits at Secure-U, for Michael ?
17:59  Etienne> good night
18:01  FD> See you, all!
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