21:44:38 FD Bonsoir Etienne, 21:45:35 Etienne Bonsoir Frédéric! Cette fois, j'y ai pensé. Corneille au lit, histoire raconté, jardin arosé, ordinateur allumé........... 21:45:45 FD :-) 21:46:30 J'avais gardé en mémoire que tu avais deux enfants ? Me trompes-je ? 21:48:05 egal moin ... heute darf also wieder jeder in seiner muttersprache schreiben? ;-) 21:49:13 Etienne Nein, nicht jeder, aber wenn du nett fragst, darfst du auch auf französisch schreiben ;-) 21:50:05 egal kann ich nicht ... deutsch, englisch ist okay ... niederlaendisch, schweizerdeutsch und luxemburgisch nur lesender/hoerenderweise ... ;) 21:52:52 Etienne Na, na na: Wenn du ein Croissant gegessen hast, musst du vielleicht auf die Toilette... Ich denke du kannst mehr französisch, als du denkst. Dann hast du Durst, gehst in ein Café, trinkst eine Tasse (la tasse) Elefantenmilch (l'éléphant) und isst eine Orange (l'orange). etc. 21:53:23 FD Meine Herren, 21:53:23 Was halten Sie davon, wenn wir über Jitsi zu einer Telefonkonferenz übergehen? 21:53:29 https://meet.jit.si/cacert 21:54:40 egal in this case i can listen only ... otherwise i would disturb sonja ... 21:54:53 (well ... and write my remarks in chat) 21:56:36 FD Wissen Sie, Dirk, dies wird eine freie Diskussion sein, denn wir sind nicht beschlussfähig, um über irgendetwas abzustimmen. 21:57:38 Etienne We have allready a quorum: sat, FD and Etienne are 3. 21:59:21 → bdmc est entré 21:59:29 bdmc Greetings, all. 21:59:43 FD Good morning Brian! 21:59:54 Etienne Good Morning America! 22:00:05 bdmc This is technically the middle of my work day, so I may not be able to stay right through. 22:00:18 → MitchMaifeld est entré 22:00:26 FD Thank you for having joined us. 22:00:38 bdmc Morning Mitch. How is Texas? 22:00:54 Etienne bdmc, we want to go to sleep, so we will do it as fast as possible and even a little bit faster. 22:00:54 MitchMaifeld Not as hot as usual! 22:00:59 FD Hi Mitchel, Good Afternoon Florida! 22:01:05 bdmc B-) 22:01:11 MitchMaifeld ;o) 22:01:14 Etienne Hello everybody 22:01:32 bdmc OK, I don't have my Agenda in front of me yet, but let's go. 22:02:10 First, I may not be here for the whole time, so may pass the Chair off to Etienne. Otherwise, any deadlines for people? 22:02:10 FD Agenda: (1) Good news: 22:03:35 bdmc The wiki is slow today, but, moving on. 22:03:48 Is anybody going to help Etienne with the minutes? 22:04:24 FD Good news #1 : Paypal fixed thanks to Bret, Etienne, and Frédéric 22:04:32 bdmc Hmmm. The wiki still hasn't opened. 22:04:37 Etienne https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2020-08-20 22:04:51 bdmc FD: You are getting ahead of the agenda. 22:05:09 Finally, I have my Agenda. Everybody else? 22:05:21 Etienne Minutes from last week: https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2020-08-13#Minutes 22:05:30 FD Won't you want me to do that, in order to let you leave us for coming back to your work? 22:05:40 bdmc Item 1.4 -- Anything in the mailing lists? 22:05:45 Etienne (the wiki is over heated, wait one minute....) 22:06:37 bdmc Yes, I see that the "approve previous minutes" is missing from this Agenda, Etienne. 22:06:59 May I have a motion to approve the minutes for August 13th? 22:07:36 Etienne I move to accept the minutes of 13-08-2020. 22:07:52 bdmc All in favour? 22:08:25 Abs. 22:08:47 Please vote now. 22:09:16 Etienne aye 22:09:46 bdmc Nobody else? 22:09:52 Etienne FD? 22:09:53 FD I believe we did not said a word about removing the Paypal button from the homepage. 22:10:02 BTW, we should not remove it. 22:10:07 Should we? 22:10:22 FredericG I don't remember the Paypal button either 22:11:02 Since Paypal is now running again, it seems good to delay this action, until we have another provider 22:11:16 FD Past week, we talked also about taking advantage of CAcert in embedded security devices 22:11:22 Etienne This was probabely in July. 22:11:28 FD It does not appear in the minutes 22:11:50 FredericG @Etienne understood, thank you 22:12:06 Etienne The new code is not reviewes yet. I can change it in the manner that we have (1) Bank CH, (2) bank AU and 3rd PP. 22:12:19 bdmc I do seem to remember talk of removing the Donation and Membership buttons, since they were non-functional. I wasn't at last week's meeting, though 22:12:21 Etienne There are no minutes in July, only the log file. 22:13:03 FD Do we want minutes for the past week meeting, as it was mainly an informal talk? 22:13:45 Etienne Last week was just an information about it. Details see here https://bugs.cacert.org/view.php?id=1493 it started at 28-7-2020. Before last week. 22:14:03 bdmc Since they are not mentioned in the Agenda, perhaps we can consider them not to have existed ( formally ). 22:14:10 Etienne FD: we have minutes, the question is: are they OK or not. 22:14:53 FD If we could add a word about taking advantage of CAcert in embedded security devices, and remove the mention about the Paypal button, I would say they are ok. 22:15:11 bdmc As we get into the "school year," and closer to the AGM, perhaps we should make sure that we are properly recording things. May I have a volunteer to help with Minutes? 22:16:19 Etienne OK, FD, you can improve the minutes and today we report the vote. 22:16:46 bdmc I would rather the minutes be complete before we vote. 22:17:09 Let us put them into the Agenda for next meeting, and move on. 22:17:13 Etienne OK 22:17:52 bdmc As Frederic ( D ) suggested, let us start with Item 2.2.1. 22:18:20 I think that we all saw that flood of e-mail messages earlier in the week. 22:19:00 Who wants to report on this? 22:20:30 Etienne Who knows the details? I was offline until tonight. 22:20:57 ← FD a quitté (Connection closed) 22:21:37 → FD est entré 22:21:40 FredericG I don't know what happened, supposedly a bug somewhere. I just noticed that these emails were previous emails already broadcasted by the list between June and August 22:21:59 bdmc But I was only seeing them for the first time. 22:22:15 Etienne That is a distribution problem with our sympa list server. 22:23:14 FredericG Since these emails were mainly about our Paypal freeze that I was involved in, I recognize them. 22:23:16 egal in this case you should consult jandd ... i don't have root access on this server ... ;-( 22:24:15 FredericG If you never read them, that means I made a confution and they were never broadcasted by the list. 22:24:24 Etienne I contacted JanDD in the beginning of this week. That is probabely the reason, why it works again. 22:24:24 bdmc OK, we have two conversations going on. One about a technical problem with the mailing list server, and the other about the Paypal issue. Which do we want to discuss at this point in the Agenda? 22:25:15 FredericG Let's put aside the list bug. Nothing important for this meeting. 22:26:01 bdmc FredericG, do you have any real information, other than the e-mail messages, about the resolution to the Paypal issue? 22:26:28 FredericG Thanks to the strong and effective help of Bret Watson locally in Australia, who spoke and advocated to the financial regulation authority, the authority twisted Paypal’s neck and fully agreed with us. 22:26:28 Therefore, our Paypal account in now operating again. 22:26:29 As a compensation, Paypal is offering to send us USD or AUD (I don't know) 500. 22:27:18 bdmc Isn't that generous of them? B-( 22:28:01 FredericG This is as very fresh new, sync with our meeting tonight: 22:28:06 bdmc I understand, reading those messages, that there were some communication difficulties, but that they were not at all helpful in even asking for what they wanted. 22:28:09 FredericG Dear CACERT INCORPORATED, 22:28:09 Our review is complete and we have restored your account. 22:28:09 We appreciate your patience and thank you for your help in making PayPal the safest and most trusted online payment solution. 22:28:10 Sincerely, 22:28:10 Sam 22:28:11 PayPal 22:28:29 Received yesterday evening 22:30:09 FredericG Therefore, I suggest to carry on the plan we built since last year, modified with Paypal issue: 22:30:10 - Transfer all of our money from Westpac bank account to our new bank account in Switzerland 22:30:10 - Carry on the relocation of our head office in Switzerland 22:30:11 - Close our Westpac bank account 22:30:12 - Close the Australian Paypal account and open an new one in Switzerland or choose a new provider 22:30:43 bdmc Without anything else, I guess that we should move on to other agenda items. 22:31:21 ( Written before FredericG's latest. ) Do we want to consider a motion, or hold off until we meet again? 22:31:53 I would suggest that we prepare more formally for such a motion, and make it part of a later Agenda. 22:32:30 Etienne I suggest a plan for next meeting, including some transfers to SecureU, as they will ask us again some money soon ;-) 22:33:23 bdmc Moving on. Item 2.1 -- FD, do you want to report? 22:33:39 FD What's about voting now on some of Frédéric's proposals? 22:33:41 Etienne And how to transfer the money from Australia to Switzerland or Germany. 22:34:29 FD I guess the Paypal issue would worth a little more talk at the moment, than just skipping to the next point. 22:34:53 bdmc Nobody seemed to be saying anything. 22:35:11 I will wait. 22:36:23 FredericG Yes, this was the major issue from December, that catched a serious amount of Energy frome Etienne, I and now Bret. At the same time, strangled us financially. 22:37:46 FredericG I suggest we take the opportunity that everybody is warm on that matter to work a little bit more and terminate the financial tools. 22:37:57 FD I agree. 22:38:26 FredericG Note that I don't write any timeline, just a sequence of steps 22:39:10 that seems to me aligned with our willing to relocate to Europe, and aligned with our new Swiss bank acount. 22:39:33 Etienne +1 22:40:36 FD In Switzerland, does our bank provides accounts in more currencies than CHF and EUR ? 22:41:03 Etienne The bank account is in CHF. 22:41:12 FD Do we need to prepare something at our Swiss bank before ordering the transfer from Australia? 22:42:27 Etienne Therefore it makes sense to transer EUR directly to SecureU. 22:42:27 22:42:27 The background is: This is an association account. Therefore free of charge. and associations in Switzerland usually have only CHF. 22:42:44 FD Is there a cost/problem for opening more accounts than CHF only at our Swiss bank? 22:43:10 FredericG Etienne. I didn't know. Clever, thank you 22:43:47 An account in EUR or USD could cost, I guess? 22:43:47 FD The question is: do we decide to make our Swiss bank account to be our main bank account? I thought the answer is yes. 22:44:40 If yes, the Swiss bank should be able to host several currencies. 22:44:54 Etienne An EUR account is 60 CHF per year (15 CHF per 3 month), but free, if we have >250 000 CHF on the account ;-) 22:46:07 egal @etienne are there high fees when transferring money from chf to eur (within SEPA) ? 22:46:13 i don't think so ... 22:46:38 Etienne Saving accounts in CHF and EUR are free. But then you have to pay for transfer if it is not to your own account. 22:47:02 egal (at least nobody from switzerland complains when they have to pay for lugcamp in CH or DE) 22:48:14 FD Would we want to adopt the directions proposed by Frédéric G with a motion, voted now? 22:48:16 Etienne Transferring fees in CHF or EUR to CH/FL/SEPA are free if it is done by e-banking. 22:50:17 Etienne This means that there is a currency risk. But in order to store money, the CHF is rather a strong currency, the risk is small. When the EUR was new, EUR/CHF was 1:1.6, now almost 1:1. Good for Germans with an account in Switzerland, bad luck for Swiss with EUR investments. 22:50:52 FD The idea of Frédéric G is to take advantage of the quorum being present this evening, and vote general guidance for the financial team. 22:51:39 FredericG Agreed, I suggest we vote on the steps and let the tresurers / secretary arrange the details and the best ways to put the intentions in reality. 22:52:14 FD Then, the financial team will discuss details, and find a way to complete what was voted here, or report what might have been to blockades preventing the financial team to do like we thought it might have been done. 22:52:24 FredericG @Etienne. This is also my opinion. 22:53:03 Etienne How about: The finance team is working out a detailed plan to pool our finances. 22:54:38 bdmc I would much rather see that plan presented to the Board for approval, instead of some vague "wish" from the Board to the Finance Team. 22:55:46 bdmc This is a major change in CAcert, Inc. 22:55:52 FD Well, as you wish. 22:56:10 FredericG same 22:56:10 bdmc I'm not the only one here. 22:57:26 FredericG nothing to add from me on this topic 22:57:34 Etienne Of course, bdmc. We start with FredericG list. The finance team prepares the detailed plan and submits it to us. 22:58:02 FD Good idea. 22:58:08 bdmc Then submit a motion. 22:58:55 If that is how you want to notify the Finance Team of your wishes. 22:59:09 FD Well, let's do Etienne write the motion? 23:00:18 Etienne We start with FredericG list. Based on FredericG's four-point plan, the finance team works out a detailed plan of how CAcert Inc. will bundle the finances and submits it to the committee for discussion and approval. 23:00:40 The mtion text could be: We start with FredericG list. Based on FredericG's four-point plan, the finance team works out a detailed plan of how CAcert Inc. will bundle the finances and submits it to the board for discussion and approval. 23:01:00 FredericG perfect 23:01:22 Etienne (sorry: only starting at "Based....." 23:01:53 FredericG we understood 23:03:13 bdmc I am not going to accept a motion that says "Based on FredericG's four-point plan...." It doesn't say what his four point plan is. 23:03:31 Etienne "Based on FredericG's four-point plan, the finance team works out a detailed plan of how CAcert Inc. will bundle the finances and submits it to the board for discussion and approval." 23:04:52 bdmc Also, I think that we all have some saying about "all of our eggs in one basket." 23:05:42 Etienne "Based on FredericG's four-point plan (Transfer all of our money from Westpac bank account to our new bank account in Switzerland, Carry on the relocation of our head office in Switzerland, Close our Westpac bank account, Close the Australian Paypal account and open an new one in Switzerland or choose a new provider), the finance team works out a detailed plan of how CAcert Inc. will bundle the finances and submits it to the board for discussion and approval." 23:06:16 FredericG great from me 23:06:47 FD I guess Brian wants to warn us, that it could be a good idea to keep accounts opened in several countries. Did I understand you Brian? 23:08:16 Etienne Maybe we want to close only one of two bank accounts in Australia for the moment? But I think, the Financial team should discuss this kind of things and make some propositions to us. 23:08:49 bdmc To a large extent, yes. Certainly, most of our expenses are in EUR, while we get donations from all over the world. 23:09:24 We can't keep using SecureU as a bank. 23:09:59 egal: Or can we? 23:10:19 egal @bdmc correct ... this could cause issues with german taxes / association rights ... 23:11:14 FD Interesting topic, and I would love to better understand to position of Secure-U. 23:11:31 But talking would be better than keyingé 23:11:33 But talking would be better than keying 23:11:55 bdmc Also, combining the Financial issues, changing bank accounts, with the change of location of CAcert, Inc, seems to be over-reaching for the Finance Team. 23:12:33 egal we can explain the tax office, that there was a call for funding/... one time (or on a low/normal usage) ... but for long-term/high-amount i'm not sure ... 23:12:42 FredericG Do we have to decide something about Secure-U receiving money on you behalf right now? 23:14:17 egal @fredericg maybe it's a good idea to have somebody from secure-u at (or next to) the financial team to decide for future bank/...-accounts for CAcert ... 23:15:04 FredericG more than welcome 23:17:18 FD The rational of Frédéric G for giving priority to the Swiss bank account, is that it is expected far more easy to manage the Swiss bank account than to manage the Australian bank account. 23:18:47 FredericG And I didn't write any delay or timeline to close the Westpac australian account. This is what I call details about the execution of the plan. 23:19:15 FD Today, we may vote a motion to instruct the Financial team to present a way to restructure our bank accounts + Paypal setup, having in mind these priorities: lowering cost and complexity. 23:19:47 egal ... and stability ... ;-) 23:20:11 FD Doing that, we won't take decisions before analysis right now, however, we will have been able to move ahead. 23:21:28 Etienne agree 23:21:54 bdmc I find this much more attractive than the original proposal. 23:21:58 FD I motion that the Finance team shall prepare and propose to the Committee a plan for restructuring our bank accounts + Paypal setup, having in mind these priorities: lowering cost and complexity, and enhancing stability. 23:22:15 bdmc Second and Aye 23:22:15 FredericG I second and aye 23:22:29 FD Can I vote my own motion? 23:22:43 bdmc FD: I expect you to. 23:22:52 FD Good! I vote yes. 23:22:56 bdmc Don't you approve of it? 23:22:58 B-) 23:23:38 Anybody else voting? 23:23:42 Etienne aye 23:24:17 bdmc I think that is all of us. I see a pass, until the e-mail votes come in. 23:24:29 FD yes: 4/4 = the motion is approved and passed 23:24:49 bdmc Now, I really need to get back to work. Will you take the Chair, Etienne, or would you rather someone else do it? 23:25:03 Etienne OK 23:25:09 FD Good afternoon, Brain! 23:25:14 Good afternoon, Brian! 23:25:21 FredericG By Brian! 23:25:23 bdmc Good Night, All. See you next time. 23:25:26 FredericG bye 23:25:36 Etienne good bye, Brian 23:25:51 bdmc I will leave the machine running, but nobody will be home. B-) 23:25:59 FD Brian, do we meet tomorrow morning for completing the RIPE application? 23:26:10 bdmc Peter said not Friday. 23:26:26 ( At least, that's what my memory says. ) 23:26:44 FD We could go ahead together, then invite him on Saturday for a final review. 23:27:00 bdmc OK. See you then. 23:27:03 FD I say that, because Sunday the 23rd is our deadline. 23:27:12 Ok fine! 23:27:39 Etienne Any important news concerning Arbitration, FD? 23:28:20 FD I have not been coming back to any arbitrator since our last meeting. 23:28:38 Etienne No problem. Is someone from Infrastructure here to discuss 2.3? 23:29:15 egal what is 2.3? 23:30:26 Etienne Infrastructure Status 23:30:26 23:30:26 ??Applicants 23:30:26 ??Hardware/Servers available and/or needed 23:30:26 hot-spare signer 23:30:26 moving sun1 to critical segment (as the old infra01-server is not needed for infra anymore) 23:30:48 I do not know, if this is still a topic or just not removed froom the agenda. 23:31:19 egal applicants? ... only jandd knows details 23:31:26 hardware ... is available 23:31:50 hot-spare-signer ... there was the "OK" on a meeting before 23:32:18 sun1 -> critical ... is somehow in progress, can be done at next visit at BIT 23:32:32 Etienne Thank you for this update, egal. 23:32:59 egal infra03 ... running at my flat in velbert 24/7 ... will be installed in the rack at the next visit at BIT 23:33:33 FD Apart the hardware matter, we should plan two meetings of the committee, for welcoming the new applicants, chosen for joining infrastructure (4 people), critical (1 people) and support (6 people). 23:33:56 egal (there may be minor hardware-costs ... but nothing secure-u or CAcert has to worry about) 23:35:36 Etienne FD, something like a virtual welcome apero? Or included in one of the next meetings? 23:36:06 FD A virtual welcome apero is a pleasant idea. 23:36:45 BTW, for the bandwidth issue at BIT, it was solved: the bandwidth is not capped at all, period. 23:37:02 Guys. may we leave for bed? 23:37:09 Etienne Thank you, Frédéric! 23:37:18 Just two minutes, please! 23:37:22 2.5 Policy Group: Please check with the policy group. It was a short discussion. It could use two or three more votes before we vote at the end of the month. https://lists.cacert.org/wws/arc/cacert-policy 23:37:52 (2.6. Software will be skipped) 23:38:13 egal @FD according to the invoice it is at 20 MBit/s (10 MBit/s before Corona) 23:38:34 Etienne 2.7. Critical: Something important, egal? If not... 23:38:47 egal currently not ... 23:38:58 Etienne Question Time? 23:38:58 FD Good night then! 23:39:05 Etienne Next meeting: 23:39:20 Following the first thursday rule: Agree on date of the next Committee Meeting: 3. Sept 2020 23:39:31 is this OK? 23:39:31 FD OK, nice ! 23:40:07 FredericG ok 23:40:07 FD Question time: could we open a voice channel in parrallel to IRC, on the 3rd of September meeting? It would help to speed the talks up. 23:40:37 Etienne Thank you MitchMaifeld, FD, egal, sat, bdmc, FredericG and all the visitors on the floor for joining us. The meeting is closed. 23:40:46 FD: good idea. 23:41:14 FredericG FD: indeed 23:41:18 FD Bye Mitchell, thank you for your presence. 23:41:25 Etienne Good night Europe, good afternoon America, good morning Australia! 23:41:25 MitchMaifeld You are welcome! 23:41:29 FredericG good night 23:41:41 MitchMaifeld Good afternoon. 23:41:45 FD @ Etienne, @ Frédéric G: what's about https://meet.jit.si/cacert then? 23:41:53 ← MitchMaifeld est parti du salon 23:41:54 FredericG yes 23:42:11 Etienne What means "then"? 23:42:46 FD what's about https://meet.jit.si/cacert on the 3rd of September? 23:43:06 Etienne Before/during/after the meeting? 23:43:09 FD As a voice channel in parallel to the IRC channel? 23:43:29 Etienne OK in parallel. Let's try it. 23:43:39 FD It was very helpful with Frederic G and me today. 23:43:50 Hope to see you all then on Jitsi next time. 23:44:08 FredericG Etienne Sharpen your French... 23:44:10 FD In parallel to the IRC channel. 23:44:53 Etienne FredericG: my family is from the French part since 1475. 23:45:10 I am the first generation having not French as mother tongue. 23:45:42 But with my wife I speak 90% French. 23:46:08 FD Does Mireille speaks German too? 23:47:54 Etienne Yes she does. At work and in the village. But not at home. 23:48:22 egal when we've been at your site she did ... ;-) 23:49:30 Etienne You are right, egal, when we have visitors from abroad... or from CAcert or both. 23:53:03 FD Meine Herren, 23:53:04 Ich wünsche Ihnen eine gute Nacht! 23:54:06 Etienne Bonne nuit! 23:54:22 ← FD est parti du salon (Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 23:54:26 Etienne Gute Nacht. Merci. (Oh, egal, schon wieder ein französisches Wort) 23:55:09