21:05:01
bdmc
pnunn: Darn, one too many commas.  Oh, well. 
21:05:09
Good evening Etienne. 
21:05:16
Any you make four. 
21:05:25
( any => And ) 
21:05:29
Etienne
Hello, sorry for being late. 
21:05:49
bdmc
No problem, shall we start, or see if anybody else will join us? 
21:05:49
→ Treasurer has joined 
21:05:54
bdmc
Five! 
21:06:12
FD
Good evening Etienne, Frédéric ! 
21:06:15
bdmc
Etienne: At least you are here, unlike me last meeting. 
21:06:21
FD
Nice to see you. 
21:06:30
Treasurer
Bonsoir ! 
21:07:10
Etienne
I went next door 45 min ago to ask *one* question.... and was surprised, when the church bell rang 9x.... 
21:07:11
bdmc
Shall we wait another three minutes, so that the Minutes come out even? 
21:08:10
Etienne: Just for the record, would you please post the address of tonight's Agenda? 
21:08:57
Etienne
https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-11-21 
21:10:10
bdmc
I hereby call this meeting of the Board of CAcert, Inc. at 20:10 UTC, 21st November 2019 
21:10:19
to order! 
21:10:43
Etienne: Do you want someone else to handle Minutes? 
21:11:21
Etienne
Let's do it as usual, we can change for the comming year 19/20. 
21:11:42
bdmc
I have a deadline of approximately 21:45 UTC tonight. 
21:11:52
pnunn
Hmm.. I can't open those minutes in firefox. It doesn't like my cert.. I'll have to look at that later. 
21:12:01
bdmc
Anybody else? 
21:12:03
pnunn
I have about an hour. 
21:12:20
bdmc
punn: That's aggravating.  I had that problem, too, a month or so ago. 
21:13:36
Etienne
pnunn, you have an irc copy for now. Anyone else need a copy on irc? 
21:14:00
bdmc
I was just skimming over the minutes from 7 November.  Can I hear a motion to accept? 
21:14:07
pnunn
Thanks. 
21:14:26
I move a motion to accept the minutes. 
21:14:33
Etienne
I second 
21:15:16
any aye 
21:15:16
bdmc
All in favour? 
21:15:22
Abs 
21:15:25
pnunn
aye. 
21:15:28
FD
Abs too 
21:15:38
Treasurer
aye 
21:15:46
bdmc
Thank you all. 
21:15:56
Any messages that we need to bring forward? 
21:17:19
bdmc
OK.  Moving on to the main part of the Agenda.  Unless I hear any objections, I will do it in numerical order. 
21:17:32
Item 2.1.1 New Members.  Any? 
21:17:48
Etienne
no 
21:18:15
bdmc
Item 2.1.2 et al -- Annual General Meeting 
21:18:18
Discussion? 
21:19:11
egal
do i need to pay my members fee? 
21:19:17
didn't receive an email about it ... ;-( 
21:19:34
bdmc
I've been out of touch with our new volunteers and membership applicants since early November. 
21:19:57
egal: I agree.  That should have been out by now, since the meeting is one week away. 
21:20:29
Treasurer
who is egal? 
21:20:56
FD
egal equals Dirk 
21:21:30
Etienne
If someone can tell me names/adresses for board or sub commitee members, I will contact them (this week I have some extra shifts until saturday evening, so very few time) 
21:22:04
bdmc
Does that have to do with Dirk's question about membership fees? 
21:22:25
Etienne
no, with bdmc remark about volunteers 
21:22:26
Treasurer
I don't see any membership fees from Dirk, as far as I know 
21:23:02
egal
in the past eva paid my membership fees as i don't have paypal ... 
21:23:23
bdmc
Every member of CAcert, Inc. should receive a membership statement or invoice each year. 
21:23:24
Etienne
Treasurer, all members with no membership fee paid should be contactet until 08 november. 
21:23:57
see https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/Next#Administration 
21:25:12
Treasurer
Since some of us have ordered yearly paiements occuring until mid-november in Paypal, and the members list is now by hand, I have some difficulties to have a clear view 
21:26:13
Treasurer
I can tell who paid, and it is more difficult to digg in whom has to 
21:26:55
bdmc
I would suggest that "Membership Management" be one of the tasks that the "Finance Department" be assigned.  ( That Finance Department being all of the volunteers for financial or accounting that we received. We can talk about "ways and means." ) 
21:27:09
Treasurer
of course 
21:27:23
Etienne
Treasurer, can you tell me (not here, but at eruedin@cacert.org) who has paid, and I will cross check with the members list and you answer who has not paid. 
21:27:30
bdmc
I agree that it seems to be a large task for the "Treasurer" alone. 
21:27:47
( It has been for years. ) 
21:27:47
Etienne
maybe, you Treasurer, send me a scan of the hand made list. 
21:28:05
Treasurer
I guess I sent you a similar request last week 
21:28:39
"hand made" mean Excel sheet, at the opposite of an ERP automated one 
21:29:06
Etienne
Excel is also good ;-) 
21:29:10
Treasurer
Etienne I will arrange myself with you after the meeting 
21:29:27
bdmc
Treasurer: Somewhat off topic, how many rows do you have in that spreadsheet? 
21:31:10
bdmc
As far as Reports, Etienne should have noticed that I have started working on my report and will have it done prior to the meeting.  Are there others that you don't know about, yet? 
21:31:23
Treasurer
130 for members, most of them being members from 2012 who quit 
21:31:39
bdmc
Treasurer: Thank you. 
21:32:13
egal
if i need to pay ... please tell me early enough so in can find somebody with paypal, who can send the money in time ... thank you ... ;-) 
21:33:16
bdmc
egal: I wonder whether something might be done with a payment to secure-u or something else that you do have access to. 
21:34:19
Treasurer
For the board, I am quite lost between the names of the current members, their aliases, and whom should pay 
21:34:24
bdmc
Looking at section 2.1.2.1.1 -- I would like to suggest that we have that discussion off-line, but we do not seem to do well with e-mail. 
21:34:24
egal
some time ago the secure-u treasurer told me, that secure-u can collect donations for CAcert, but not membership fees ... 
21:34:28
Etienne
bdmc, membership fees cannot be paid with secure-U, but in 2020 with CAcert's bank account (coming soon). 
21:35:00
meens CAcert's European bank account. 
21:35:25
bdmc
Yes, I understood, thanks. 
21:35:47
Treasurer
By the way, Secure-U is an issue for my financial annual report, since I don't know what we receive in this account. 
21:36:09
bdmc
Yes, I have been reading about that for a few weeks. 
21:36:41
Do we want to talk about this any more, or move on?  Peter has approximately 20 minutes. 
21:37:24
Treasurer
I know enough from Paypal, which I have an access at will, and Westpac, kindly provided some weeks ago (by Peter, if I remember) 
21:37:45
One minute for treasurers volunteer 
21:38:33
I send requests to move on with the volunteers and 3 of them really answered. 
21:38:36
egal
@treasurer: secure-u receives donations for CAcert, which will reduce upcoming invoices or expenses for CAcert ... so it's nothing you have to take care in your financial report ... 
21:38:58
Treasurer
ok 
21:39:33
Etienne
So, I suggest to create a financial team or subcommittee with them. 
21:39:41
egal
(but we (secure-u) should have the amount of donations for CAcert by hand so CAcert is well-informed on AGM) 
21:39:45
FD
Dirk, and what happens in case the donations are higher than the amount of the invoices? 
21:39:58
Treasurer
Following volunteers, I am currently discussing with a French, a British and a Belgium volunteers, all of them pretty good 
21:40:17
egal
some meetings ago i told etienne the amount of donations 
21:40:53
@fd: we keep it for the next invoices ... (if not otherwise requested by CAcert ... ;-) ) 
21:41:07
Treasurer
The amount of donations isn't of concern to date, because they happened after the end of the fiscal year, don't they? 
21:41:53
egal
it makes no sense to send it to CAcert ... and get it back when invoices are paid (this only causes transaction fees) 
21:42:24
FD
@Dirk, fine. However, I guess that Frederic (our treasurer) should receive a statement of the cumulated amount of donations received by Secure-U, because that money actually exists. 
21:43:11
bdmc
Treasurer and all: My proposal, along with some other people, was to keep those volunteers as a Finance Committee, along with an elected Treasurer.  They would do the bulk of the work, and the Treasurer would represent that work to the Board. 
21:44:15
Treasurer
@FD On an accounting an legal point of view, I would prefer, indeed 
21:44:22
FD
@Dirk: He (our treasurer) would then do the calculation (received donations at Secure-U - cost of Secure-U's invoices) to let us know what is the remaining amount. 
21:45:44
→ dops has joined 
21:45:53
egal
@fd: on one of the last invoices there was a reducton: all BIT-invoices listed and a final line with reduction ... 
21:46:03
bdmc
Welcome Gero.  We are discussing Finance. 
21:46:17
dops
Hi all 
21:46:33
FD
Good evening, Gero! 
21:46:49
bdmc
I have one hour. 
21:47:09
egal
invoice 2018-1 
21:47:18
Treasurer
@egal Yes, but I made it appear in the accounting. 
21:48:59
Treasurer
paiement in progress today or tomorrow. I am learning the correct procedure to avoid high hidden and surprising fees catched by Paypal 
21:49:37
FD
@Fred: thumb up! 
21:50:44
egal
@treasurer: as there had been no fees secure-u had to pay in the past i we need to bill the paypal transaction-fees inn the next invoice 
21:51:11
tfor the last payments secure-u had to pay transaction fees 
21:51:38
FD
we remember about what you explained, yes. 
21:52:35
Treasurer
nothing more useful to write for finance now 
21:53:26
bdmc
Since we have Dirk here, perhaps we can move on to Item 2.2.1.  Dirk, do you have anything further to report about the new Critical Team?  How are they doing? 
21:55:02
bdmc
egal:  ?? 
21:55:50
egal
norbert and i met wytze at BIT at the beginning of this month 
21:56:35
FD
@Dirk: we read about it: https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-11-07#Minutes 
21:57:05
bdmc
egal: OK, moving on to Arbitration.  Have you been able to rouse anyone? 
21:57:20
egal
part of the time mendel and mark were present ... 
21:57:40
up to now all accesses should work now (need to test it this weekend) 
21:58:25
some of the accesses did not work at the beginning, but that's normal when doing a handover ... 
21:58:37
bdmc
egal: yes, one step at a time. 
21:59:09
egal
bas and stefan (access engineers) had been on-site at BIT for a short time to access the signer/hardware 
22:01:54
bdmc
OK.  I am at a loss for the next Agenda item.  Would somebody like to request one? 
22:02:45
Etienne
2.1.2.1. next board 
22:02:57
bdmc
Certainly. 
22:02:57
FD
May we come back to 2.1.2.1.1É 
22:03:23
bdmc
Yes, I tried earlier, so let's give it a go. 
22:03:30
Etienne
There are some nominations. 
22:03:37
bdmc
Item 2.1.2.1.1 
22:04:28
We should have asked for nominations before this.  We will have to depend on nominatations from the floor during the meeting.  Do we have anybody that we want to "volunteer?" 
22:05:13
Remember that, until the SGM, we need to have our required Australian members. 
22:05:14
pnunn
We have 4 nominations already bdmc. 
22:05:19
Etienne
Nominations can be sent until 22-11-2019. 
22:05:39
bdmc
pnunn:  Thank you.  I hadn't seen them. 
22:06:00
Etienne
3 Australians, including one of NSW. 
22:06:12
FD
I am volunteer to contact people having been wanting to be members/members of the board, and ask if they confirm their attendance at the AGM, should you think it is useful to do so. 
22:06:17
bdmc
Etienne:  Have we made a public call for nominations?  I guess that I have been missing meail. 
22:06:26
( meail => mail ) 
22:06:59
FD: Remember that they need to be paid members at the AGM to participate. 
22:07:46
FD
@Brian: to vote yes; to participate, paid membership is not required, I guess. 
22:08:13
bdmc
To be elected, yes.  To attend and observe, no. 
22:08:27
Etienne
But if they joined in this financial year, it is unclear, as membership fees have to be paid until the end of the financial year ;-) The secretary is using usually  relaxed rules. 
22:09:37
Etienne
We have to be carefull for 3 AUS / 1 NSW. But for teams and sub committees, there are no restricitions and for nominations from the floor. 
22:09:38
bdmc
It has been a while since I read the rule, but don't you have to be paid BEFORE the AGM, since that is part of the Fiscal Year ending in June? 
22:09:46
FD
Peter, may you recall me what is the difference between candidates to the board having been "nominated", and the other type of candidates? 
22:10:29
bdmc
FD: "other type of candidates?" 
22:10:40
FD
I mean, "non nominated". 
22:10:40
Etienne
FD, if nominations > or = places at the committee, you can elect only nominated people. 
22:11:02
pnunn
As far as I'm aware @FD there are no other types. It just means the ones nominated have been put up for election already and have (soon) accepted the nominations. 
22:11:15
Etienne
if number of nominees < places at the committee, the AGM can nominate directly for the remaining places. 
22:11:39
bdmc
Or "persuade" 
22:12:11
FD
You mean that the AGM is empowered to choose only 3 members of the committee over 7 seats, because four of them have been already "nominated"? 
22:13:05
bdmc
Oh, no.  The only people who may be elected are those how have been nominated, and have accepted those nominations.  The nominations may come before the beginning of the AGM, or during the AGM. 
22:13:27
( darn!  those how have => those who have ) 
22:14:03
pnunn
Not quite. It means that currently 4 have been nominated for the commitee (more will be hopefully nominated hopefully before the meeting). If all positions are filled its an easy process for the meeting. 
22:14:15
Etienne
Exactly, bdmc, but if there are enough nominations until the dead line, no more are accepted after the dead line. 
22:15:02
But if there are 6 nomintations for 7 places, the floor may nominated 7 other and vote for them. 
22:15:29
bdmc
pnunn: Only if there are exactly the number of candidates as there are positions.   If there are more candidates, a vote will be held, of course. 
22:15:40
pnunn
Correct. 
22:16:16
So if nominations < positions, the AGM can appoint/perswade on the day. If nominations 
22:16:47
= positions all get on, if nominations > positions there will need to be a vote. 
22:17:07
bdmc
So, anyway, as we have been discussing, we currently have four candidates -- does that include any of us?   We can accept nominations until midnight ( what time zone? ) tomorrow. 
22:17:36
FD
GMT 
22:18:26
egal
UTC 
22:18:31
bdmc
? 
22:18:33
B-) 
22:18:49
pnunn
FD? 
22:19:01
FD
We have 3 candidates from Australia, one of them being located in NSW. Not 4 
22:19:14
Am I right? 
22:19:34
bdmc
Peter said four earlier.  Then someone said that there were some Australians. 
22:19:58
pnunn
I think I'm the only ozzie nominated at the moment. 
22:20:04
Etienne
No, only 1 australian nomination for the moment 
22:20:53
pnunn
and not in NSW unfortunately. 
22:21:05
bdmc
And three other people.  As I asked, does that include any of us, or just Peter? 
22:21:05
pnunn
(or fortunately, depending on your point of view). 
22:21:20
FD
Etienne, did not you say : "3 Australians, including one of NSW" earlier ? 
22:21:44
Just trying to understand whom are we talking about. 
22:22:34
pnunn
The nominations are yourself Brian, Etienne, Frédéric Grither and myself if that's what your asking. 
22:22:45
FD
Thank you. 
22:22:47
Etienne
Sorry, that was not clear. We have to think that we need 1 NSW & 2 other AUS. 
22:23:02
pnunn
Although some need nominated by and seconds yet. 
22:23:58
bdmc
pnunn: Thank you. 
22:24:49
pnunn
To be clear, you are fully nominated Brian, Etienne and Frederic need seconders and I need a nominator. 
22:25:00
Etienne
We have Ross from Australia. For NSW, I have an idea (but only from the floor, nor for nomination today) 
22:25:20
FD
@Peter, @Frederic: I though you wanted to resign from the Committee, according to what you wrote earlier in the year. Still wanting to join the band wagon? ;-) 
22:25:33
egal
i nominate peter ... and second etienne and frederic 
22:25:47
(do i need to write this in a mail?) 
22:26:11
pnunn
@FD that was indeed the case, however, my situation has changed somewhat recently employment wise :( so I can stay on and see what happens. 
22:26:14
bdmc
To be clear, are we nominating "Treasurer" Frederic, or FD? 
22:26:28
pnunn
That is Treasurer. 
22:26:39
We need to nominate FD if that is acceptable. 
22:26:59
bdmc
OK.  I was under the impression that he was resigning, not to return.   Thanks, 
22:27:16
I would certainly like to nominate Frederic ( FD ) for the Board. 
22:27:54
And, like egal, I would like to confirm that this is the correct forum, or should I write a note to "secretary at cacert?" 
22:27:55
Etienne
The resigning Peter is Peter M from NSW, nut Peter N. 
22:28:09
FD
Fine. 
22:28:16
bdmc
Etienne: I was talking about Frederic G. 
22:28:36
pnunn
It was Peter N too at one point Etienne... but not now. 
22:28:36
Etienne
I read faster than I can write... 
22:28:38
Treasurer
@FD yes, I would like to resign as soon as possible, but stay where it is necessary (board, for instance), and to pass proporly knowledge and procedures to my successor(s) 
22:28:54
FD
Good. 
22:29:25
bdmc
Treasurer:  Thank you.  That would help a lot, particularly if we can form the "Finance Department ( or Committee )" to assist you with the work. 
22:29:48
pnunn
I'm sorry folks, but I need to go. I will leave this logged in to capture though. If I can I'll give Brian my proxy for any votes that need to happen. 
22:30:04
Treasurer
bye 
22:30:14
FD
Have a nice day Peter. 
22:30:14
bdmc
Thank you, Peter.  However, I have a 15 minute deadline, myself. 
22:30:36
pnunn
OK. Enjoy 
22:30:55
FD
Nice to have you onboard in 2020, Peter. 
22:31:09
Etienne
The secretary is reading and recording. That is OK. 
22:31:35
bdmc
Etienne: OK< back to procedures.  Can we make nominations here, or do we need to formally send them to the Secretary? 
22:34:11
Etienne
I said, that I am recording now, as you are present, as I did last meeting. When I can read you "face to face", this looks for me as real as a CARSed letter. 
22:35:09
bdmc
OK, so in that case I will discard the message that I was writing. 
22:35:52
I hereby nominate or second the nomination of: Etienne, Frederic D., Frederic G. and Peter N. 
22:36:23
egal
I hereby nominate or second the nomination of: Etienne, Frederic D., Frederic G. and Peter N. 
22:36:24
bdmc
I won't nominate Dirk, since he does so much for us already! 
22:36:36
egal
(hopefully bdmc had no copyright ... ;-) ) 
22:36:46
bdmc
B-) 
22:37:14
FD
Should we second the motion? 
22:37:44
bdmc
I don't know of any motion since we accepted the minuates of the previous meeting. 
22:38:05
I should also, just to finish the process, accept my nomination. 
22:38:33
FD
I thought the "nomination" was a "motion" waiting for a vote. Sorry for being poor at understanding how it works. 
22:39:27
bdmc
No, it is a statement by one ( or more ) members of CAcert, Inc. saying that they wish someone to be considered for election. 
22:39:31
Etienne
FD, we will vote about this nominations in 9 days. 
22:39:52
we = alle Inc members paid up. 
22:39:57
FD
Fine. Thank you. 
22:40:29
Treasurer
Thank you either. 
22:40:41
bdmc
Well, it is coming near to, not quite yet, time for me to drop out. 
22:41:07
Are there any issues, Agenda items, that you want me to bring up, or leave it for Etienne? 
22:41:31
FD
Thank you Brian for you lead during the meeting. We may decide this is time for us to leave too. 
22:42:10
bdmc
Well, before we leave, shall we decide on the date of the next meeting?   B-) 
22:42:16
Etienne
Please read the list I sent by mail: things to do before the meeting! Thank you! 
22:42:40
bdmc
Any questions for the Board? 
22:42:49
Etienne
Well, we can made a proposition for hte next committee. 
22:43:14
Questions: 
22:43:16
Is it true that the solution of the PHP problem is already on the test server for review? (asked in the meeting of 07-11-2019) 
22:43:16
On my way home on the bus today, I was wondering whether there might not be a way to issue the certificate with an addon for Firefox and Chrome. Who should be asked? (asked in the meeting of 07-11-2019) 
22:43:16
What went wrong with our Paypal link on the blog? added by Frederic D. 
22:43:59
FD
The Paypal question was going to be solved by Gero, if I remember right. 
22:44:08
Etienne
Thank you. 
22:44:18
FD
Merci Etienne. 
22:44:42
Etienne
Sorry: List with things to be done before the *AGM*. 
22:44:48
egal
for PHP: i don't know as i lost track there since august (way too busy since then ... ;-( ) ... gukkdevel or ted should know more details here 
22:44:59
Etienne
Thank you egal. 
22:45:06
bdmc
I have been telling myself to get back into the Development Group.  Yes, as I remember, I had left a testable copy in git. 
22:45:39
Etienne
So we have some good news for the AGM and starting points for 2019/2020. 
22:45:44
bdmc
I was the one who was working on that projct. 
22:46:04
Well, I'm out.  Have Fun, All! 
22:46:22
Etienne
FD wanted to find volunteer motivators. 
22:46:51
Treasurer
Bye Brian. Thank you 
22:46:59
Etienne
Bye Brian. 
22:47:21
FD
Have a good day Brian. 
22:47:48
Treasurer
Bye Folks, thank you for your efficient work and motivation 
22:47:49
egal
cu brian 
22:48:03
FD
Bonne nuit Frédéric. 
22:48:35
← Treasurer has left  
22:49:07
Etienne
The addon question should be treatened by the same people that have a look to the PKI.js. Two ways for the same problem. 
22:49:30
Or two teams in competition? 
23:24:07
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