22:00:25 Etienne Hello everbody, welcome to today's board meeting! 22:00:40 FD Bonsoir Etienne, 22:00:54 Peter Good morning 22:01:00 FD Good evening/morning everybody. 22:01:21 Hello Peter, 22:01:45 Etienne The agenda is here: https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-04-23 22:01:58 Peter The sun is about to rise 22:03:53 Etienne Oh, Peter, so beautiful! So that you can enjoy the whole day as much as possible, I suggest, until Brian comes, we vote the old minutes once. 22:05:45 Etienne Have you any questions or remarks for the minutes from February 28: https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-02-28#Minutes 22:07:47 FD The minutes have been written according to the content of the meeting. This is allright. 22:08:17 Etienne I move to accept the minutes from February 28. 22:09:03 (if you agree, please "second" and "aye") 22:09:16 FD I second. 22:09:29 Etienne aye 22:09:49 FD and vote Yes for adopting the minutes from February the 28th. 22:10:24 Peter aye 22:10:53 Etienne Thank you, Gentlemen. Have you any questions or remarks for the minutes from March, 21: https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-03-21#Minutes 22:11:38 → bdmc has joined 22:11:57 bdmc I apologise for my tardiness. I was flying today, and didn't get here as soon as I should. 22:13:29 Etienne Hello bdmc, welcome. We have a quorum and accepted minutes from 28-02-19 and are now reading minutes from 21-03-19 22:13:53 FD Hello Brian. 22:15:11 FD Regarding the minutes from the 19th of March, I have to abstain, as I was absent at the meeting. 22:16:10 Etienne I move to accept the minutes from March 21. 22:16:41 FD I second. 22:16:47 Etienne aye 22:16:52 bdmc aye 22:18:06 bdmc FD: A question. You say that you need to abstain from discussing the meeting of March 19th, but I don't see minutes for that one, only the 21st. 22:18:33 Etienne (sorry, FD copied my spelling mistake) 22:19:02 FD I am a fool. The meeting took place on the 21st. 22:19:15 bdmc Ahhh. OK. I am frequently confused. 22:20:36 FD On the contrary, you are often the most lucid and precise person. 22:20:45 bdmc Flattery! 22:21:09 Etienne It passed (maybe Peter will ad his vote later). I hope, you taked note of the Minutes of the informal meeting from April, 11th. https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-04-11#Minutes 22:21:45 Peter aye 22:22:55 bdmc Yes, I did. 22:23:19 Etienne Brian, you can take over: 1.5. https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-04-23 (yes, I know, today it is not 23) 22:23:54 bdmc Certainly, if you like. I presume that that document will be renamed? 22:24:30 Item 1.5. 22:25:05 Etienne There is a mail from critical team on the board public list. 22:25:06 bdmc Aside from the thread started by Wytze, are there any messages in the Board or Board Private mailing lists that we wish to discuss? 22:27:09 Etienne Those from Private should be included in the agenda. 22:27:24 bdmc Good. 22:28:00 All right. Wytze wrote a letter stating some issues which most of the Board should already be aware of. 22:28:14 Etienne For Wytze's topic, I sent earlier today a mind map. to prepare us for this discussion. Maybe today it is to early. 22:28:37 In my opinion this could be the main topic next time? 22:30:28 bdmc We can either list the highlights of his letter and discuss them today, or agree to discuss it further in Board Private. I do not think that we should delay this discussion. Yes, we can discuss this at our next meeting, but I think that we should at least start that discussion before our next meeting. 22:31:21 I agree with him that these are important issues for CAcert, both the Inc and the Community, and we have been delaying this too long. 22:31:53 Etienne It is related with 2.2.5.1 and 2.2.5.2 22:32:49 bdmc I agree. Also, work has been done to try and address some of his issues, but we have not really made a lot of public progress. 22:34:14 bdmc Personally, as I said in my message, I would like to see a way for CAcert to continue, perhaps even despite the dark message presented by Wytze and Ian. 22:34:32 Etienne The question is, do we eliminate the toxic problems from the world before we die, respectively until the steps into the future reach. 22:35:12 bdmc However, as we have all agreed, I think, CAcert NEEDS to change, because the current form or direction is not sustainable. 22:35:49 Etienne From the community, most are probabely not aware of the issues. The community should have the possibility to react. (plan of the big mail, waiting for Arb) 22:36:30 bdmc I agree. There are probably people out there who are willing and able to help, but don't know about these issues. 22:37:34 bdmc I have also had suggestions that even outside the formal Community, there are people who are willing to help us, if we can only show that we have a plan to help ourselves. 22:38:20 FD The crucial point is the uncertainty about cash in. The cessation of the activity is clearly linked by Wytze to the absence of funds. Otherwise, the activities could continue, regardless of their acknowledged ineffectiveness. 22:39:05 bdmc I am as much at fault as anybody with a lack of communication, both inside and outside the organisation. 22:39:45 Peter We need a social media campaign to make a social medial site offer verification that you are a real person. The site would then sponsor us. Cover our costs ongoing. 22:40:04 The alternatives are mostly one off bursts of money 22:40:34 FD I would give priority to the collection of membership fees, which would have been useful for us to have begun last year. 22:40:35 bdmc I agree with FD. Can we not, somehow, send out a message to all of the known Members of CAcert, Inc., asking for their Dues, and, perhaps, other donations? 22:42:04 Etienne I had contact with the treasurer. He now realy wants to ask for the contriution of the last years. Furthermore, in the big 340K-mail we will ask for donations. Communication is much better this year than before (PR, Blog, Twitter, Newsletter) - even we can still made it better. 22:42:53 bdmc Peter: Is this an idea of a membership site where you would become a registered member ( for money of course ) and therefore have a "badge" that said that you were a known person. I'm not saying this very well. I know that we have talked about some kind of "dating site verification" sort of thing, if I remember. 22:44:23 bdmc Etienne: That is very good news. That, as we know, should have happened months ago. Is he ready to prepare individual invoices for all members, showing outstanding, unpaid, dues amounts? 22:44:49 Etienne Peter: That is a good idea. Probabely, you should discuss it with egal, as he had similar ideas (and me to). Together (as a subb group), we could prepare the project? (I have no ideas from the technical point of view) 22:45:00 → alex has joined 22:45:18 bdmc alex: Welcome to the party. 22:45:26 Peter Someone joins a dating site. There are 100 to choose from. What if one site offered real people instead of fake profiles? They would stand out in the crowd. 22:45:28 alex hello altogether :) 22:45:34 FD Good evening Alex. 22:45:48 Peter Good morning Alex 22:46:46 alex nice welcome. sorry I'm late. 22:46:51 Etienne Hello Alex, bdmc:the individual invoices are ready as csv since 28-12-2018. The treasurer told me, that it is now also ready in a mailing software. I am waiting he is pressing the button. 22:46:59 bdmc Peter: I suspect that the details are not for this meeting, but I see two parts to this. The Dating Site part, and the Identification part. 22:47:11 alex I have also not much to tell, so I won't disturb much. 22:47:48 bdmc Etienne: What is he waiting for? Didn't we request this a long time ago? 22:48:28 Etienne bdmc, I sent you a copy of the mail. That is all as I know. I do not have other ways to contact him. 22:48:52 bdmc Thank you. 22:49:04 I know that it has been a struggle. 22:51:05 bdmc Peter: Further to that, are you suggesting that we associate with an existing Dating Site, and therefore not have to do that work ourselves? 22:52:55 Peter If we can generate demand for identification, we can talk a Web site into using our IDs in return for sponsorship. 22:53:58 bdmc And, unfortunately, the circle comes around. 22:54:07 Peter We need users asking for ID. Generate the demand. 22:54:17 bdmc Exactly. 22:55:08 A PR effort, convincing people that accurate identification is a Good Thing! 22:55:20 Not insurmountable, but.... 22:56:19 I won't cut this discussion off, but do need to remind us that we need to return to the Agenda at some point. 22:56:49 Peter and I may not have quite the same deadline as the Europeans, but time passes. 22:57:08 Peter I think it is under 2.2.1.2 22:57:43 alex My personal opinion and 50 cents: I suspect that on dating sites people hesitate with real identification. And it will certainly be a must of free-willing. I personally doubt that we will be successful here, I'm afraid. 22:58:56 bdmc Yes, various Agenda items have had relevance to our discussion. 23:00:18 Etienne To know, if ID for dating sites could be a way, I will try to contact one or two. 23:03:14 bdmc Let us agree to discuss all of these issues in Board Private over the next couple of weeks, and move on to the Agenda. 23:03:54 Etienne: I haven't been keeping up on news from Great Britain. What is happening with Item 2.1.1? 23:04:03 alex @bdmc better. if i shall do something, please let me know. 23:04:23 Etienne *If* one day the British will leaf the European Union, dops accept to take over Megans task. Thank you very much! 23:04:51 bdmc That is good news. However, for the moment, things just hang in the air. 23:05:56 bdmc Next, Items 2.2.3, 2.2.5.1 and the AGM. 23:06:42 We need to hold our next AGM some time after we get our Finacial Reports, after the end of the Fiscal Year, but BEFORE December 25th! 23:07:33 Etienne And maybe after we asked to pay membership fees for 2017/2018 and for donations. 23:08:01 And after the discussion about the move to Europe. So we could vote it (change the statutes). 23:08:07 FD May I add a word on 2.2.1.2 which we skip without talking about it ? 23:08:10 bdmc True. At the moment, I would suggest perhaps some time in October, but that depends on a lot of things. 23:08:47 Not skipped, yet. I was trying to collect several related items. 23:08:55 FD Ok. 23:10:00 bdmc We have already had some discussion on Items 2.3.2 and 2.3.3. Peter, do you have any news on 2.3.1? 23:11:49 Peter I have Westpac account number and can access their online system. We just need a 10 minute password exchange. 23:12:28 bdmc Good, thank you. Is that a password for the Treasurer or somebody else in Europe, or for you? 23:12:54 Peter Dirk says Kevin can send an invite and I have to use it within 10 minutes. 23:13:18 I can then access the Westpac account 23:13:20 bdmc Ahh. And across 12 time zones or so. B-) 23:13:45 egal kevin tried it some tima ago with me, but it expired due to the timezone-issues ... 23:13:47 bdmc Oh, no. Kevin is in the same time zone as you. 23:14:04 Isn't he, Peter? 23:14:37 Etienne Both are in NSW. 23:14:39 bdmc That should help. 23:14:43 Peter I exchanged email with Dirk, not Kevin. 23:15:06 Will send email direct to Kevin. 23:15:19 bdmc Well, I expect that you two should be able to connect. Good news. 23:16:04 FD: do you want to start some discussion on Item 2.2.1.2? 23:16:30 FD Yes, thank you. 23:17:18 I am going to investigate what may give to CACert. 23:17:51 The Core Infrastructure Initiative was an empty shell. 23:18:13 I wrote a mail on the board mailing list about it. 23:19:23 FD That is all. 23:19:56 bdmc Good, thank you. Yes, see what their requirements and application process are. You can report in Board Private, if you like. 23:20:06 FD Fine. 23:21:01 bdmc Dirk has pointed out that the AGM might be better, less conflict with "real life," in early November, rather than October, at least for the Europeans. 23:21:53 Etienne November is also good, as then the daylight saving time in Europe has finished. 23:22:17 bdmc We need to have a list of members who are willing to be Board Members by then ( Item 2.2.3 ), but, except for filling in gaps, we don't need them until late October. 23:22:47 FD @Etienne: True for November 2019 and 2020. Not true for November 2021. 23:23:47 bdmc Let's get past 2019, first! B-) 23:24:19 dops Note about DST: November is always no daylight saving time in EU. 23:25:54 bdmc OK, we have covered Items 2.1, most of 2.2, all of 2.3, and haven't talked about Items 2.4 and 2.5, yet. Yes, I know that I am very disorganised for this meeting? Does anybody want to discuss any item before 2.4? 23:26:17 Etienne Move to Europe sounds nice, but Europe are 49 countries. I propose Switzerland, as there associations do not need to be (usually they are not) registered. -> easier -> cheaper. If you think, it is important to be registered, we should look somewhere else. For Switzerland, I have a draft for statutes in English (that is OK) and found a bank with zero account keeping fees for associations. OK or discuss? 23:27:57 bdmc Certainly. 23:27:58 FD I move to accept Etienne's proposal of Switzerland as the new home for CACert. 23:28:56 Etienne second and aye 23:28:58 alex i second (even without entitlement) 23:29:01 egal @fd well ... some years ago board at that time did choose autria ... without and discussion/pro&contra/... 23:29:05 Peter aye 23:29:07 ted Is it possible to make tax deductible donations to such a association? Aleays a big topic in Germany... 23:29:21 FD I vote yes for Etienne's proposal. 23:29:30 bdmc I do not think that we are able to make such a decision. I suspect that we would need to either have this as an item in an AGM, or call an SGM. 23:29:47 egal from my point-of-view the move should not be done in a hurry ... 23:30:02 (but not delayed too long ... ;-) ) 23:30:19 Etienne @egal, bdmc: it is if I should continue this way or not. The decision is by the AGM. But we have to propose something. 23:30:51 → pnunn has joined 23:31:03 Etienne I hope, we can start the discussion on the members list next month - until october that should not be in a hurry. 23:31:22 bdmc Etienne: I completely agree. If this motion is for you ( and us ) to continue to prepare such a proposal, then I am in favour, but not to make a final decision. 23:31:35 pnunn: greetings, and welcome to the circus. 23:32:02 pnunn Thanks brian.. sorry for being late... been a big couple of days. 23:32:04 alex welcome pnunn 23:32:38 bdmc Etienne has just brought up Item 2.2.4 in the Agenda. 23:32:43 FD Good morning Peter 23:32:58 pnunn Morning all.. thanks brian. 23:33:21 Etienne @Ted: Tax exemption should be feasible. I would have to clarify the details. Thank you for the hint. 23:33:25 bdmc pnunn: I have been jumping all over, so that is the last item, as far as I know, before 2.4. 23:34:40 bdmc As I said, I can not support a motion worded as this one is, which implies that we, the Board, are making such a decision without consulting the membership. 23:35:42 FD I move to accept Etienne's proposal of preparing the paperwork for making Switzerland as the new home for CACert, in case and AGM/SGM does want to do so. 23:36:29 bdmc Is this an amendment of the original motion, or a new one? 23:36:45 FD This is an amendment of the original motion. 23:37:03 Peter Going through the paperwork is good investigation. 23:37:39 FD @Brian: lucid and accurate, aren't you ? 23:37:46 bdmc OK. Let's see if everybody agrees with this change. All previous votes are discarded, and we are starting again. 23:38:05 ( I know, not exactly Robert's Rules, but.... ) 23:38:24 Etienne We have to write something into our proposal to the AGM. What is determined is decided by the members. 23:38:37 bdmc I second the amended motion. 23:38:42 Etienne aye 23:39:10 FD I vote yes to the amended motion. 23:39:31 Peter aye 23:39:47 pnunn abs Not sure what it is.. but continue please. 23:40:19 bdmc pnunn: Yes, just before you arrived, Etienne said, in part: 23:40:23 I propose Switzerland, as there associations do not need to be (usually they are not) registered. -> easier -> cheaper. If you think, it is important to be registered, we should look somewhere else. For Switzerland, I have a draft for 23:40:27 statutes in English (that is OK) and found a bank with zer 23:40:37 o account keeping fees for associations. OK or discuss? 23:41:16 aye 23:41:38 Etienne: do we have any other members present to vote? 23:42:19 FD @Peter Nunn: Etienne proposed to work further on a drafting in English of statuses for CACert incorporated in Switzerland, This is the matter of the motion. 23:42:44 bdmc I think that the direction to continue with your research and documentation passes, anyway. 23:42:57 Please let us know if any of us can help. 23:43:59 Etienne That'll come soon enough. 23:44:07 bdmc OK, Item 2.4.1. I think that I saw Ted. New news? 23:44:21 FD Sorry Brain, may you explain the point in a more comprehensive way? I did not understand what we are now talking about. 23:44:32 ted Status is more or less as recorded in the bugtracker. 23:44:37 FD Brain -> Brian 23:44:55 ted The new keys are installed, but there are still places where the old checksums can be found 23:45:39 And I'm not sure if the keychain-issues with the infrastructure servers have already been fixed 23:45:41 bdmc I have been out of the country for about a week, so may have missed some "fixit" messages. I will get to that tomorrow. 23:46:54 ted So, we'll probably soon have a small followup patch, but hopefully that will fix the things on the critical server 23:46:58 bdmc FD: Bug 1305 was raised to cause the update of our Root and Class 3 certificates for the public. They are no longer accepted by current browsers. This work has, as Ted says, been generally completed. 23:47:44 FD @Brian: "the direction to continue with your research and documentation passes" 23:48:05 bdmc Oh, sorry. Yes, I just meant that the motion passed. 23:48:25 FD Thank you. 23:48:29 ted That's what I can say to bug-1305, or has anyone specific questions? 23:51:10 bdmc As far as Item 2.4.2 -- Wytze brought this up in his letter that we have already discussed. The Class 3 certificate has an expiry date that is only a short time in the future, and CAcert User Certificates ( Client Certificates ) that are signed with this will shortly extend past this expiry date. 23:52:33 bdmc Item 2.4.3 -- this work in ongoing, but has been partially put aside in favour of other, higher priority, software bugs. 23:53:16 Finally, we get to Item 2.5. Do we have any news, here? 23:53:42 Etienne Sorry, did I miss who is working on 2.4.2? 23:54:29 bdmc No you didn't. We ( Development ) are aware of it, but haven't yet come to any decision or solution. 23:54:39 ted: Do you want to add anything? 23:55:21 ted To fix this a re-signing of the class 3 certificate would be necessary, almost the same thing as in bug-1305 23:55:46 bdmc Not a re-issue, just a re-signing? 23:55:56 ted The issue is not THAT urgent, because effects are expected in two years 23:56:02 egal so we have a working process (as it was done in the past), correct? 23:56:13 ted re-issue or re-sign is not much difference... 23:56:50 bdmc OK, because the re-signing to get the SHA-256 did not affect the expiry date, and that is the issue here. 23:56:59 Etienne But some people have to think about holidays in the Netherlands, haven't they? 23:58:29 ted Probably 23:59:44 bdmc Etienne: Satisfied? 00:00:42 So, two last things ( almost ). Do we have any news about "CAcert for XXXX," Item 2.5? 00:00:44 egal @ted ... we should summarize the needed positions for the resigning/reissuing (and process to follow) ... and then name the needed persons 00:00:57 FD In regards to 2.5, we have no news, because I did not work on the Dummies project. 00:01:06 * ted agrees egal. 00:01:20 bdmc FD: Thank you. 00:01:35 Anybody want to raise any Questions? 00:01:40 FD Yes 00:01:47 bdmc Go ahead. 00:02:49 FD Etienne proposed Linphone as a means for a next meeting. Ted opposed to my proposal of using appear.in. I then support Etienne proposal, and would like you to comment on it. 00:03:10 means -> communication means 00:04:22 egal whill there be a script/recording of a voiced board-meeting? 00:05:17 (so it's possible to follow/re-read the meeting independent of the minutes ... as it is the current state? 00:05:38 Etienne I used Linphone until now only 1:1. Maybe somone should check the conference call function before a meeting. 00:05:48 alex important question egal 00:05:50 bdmc That would also be my concern. These IRC Logs are our official record of Board Meetings. The Minutes are simply a summary of the Log's contents. 00:05:57 FD I am strongly for talking better than writing, during our meetings, in order to gain a far higher output from these meetings. We can write all we want; if there is a lack of team spirit, it won't move forward so much. 00:07:28 Peter If we talk, how do people translate? 00:07:46 FD There are minutes of the meeting. 00:07:48 egal https://www.linphone.org/news/group-chat-now-available-linphone ... (well ... liphone itself is a SIP-client ... so any SIP-device/software should work) 00:08:09 minutes will never cover the whole meeting ... 00:08:22 especially not the way to find a consens 00:08:39 FD This is always the case, for any board meeting IRL 00:08:41 egal (that's why we have logs of a meeting) 00:08:57 FD I wrote many minutes in my past professional life. 00:09:27 I can say that people interested in reading them are very rare. 00:09:40 egal don't forget, that we are an open CA ... so everybody is able to read the minutes of a meeting ... 00:10:01 FD Meettings should be first useful and made for those who are attending them. 00:10:33 egal having to script/recording of a boardmeeting will create walls between CAcert Inc. and interested CAcert (Inc.) members 00:10:39 FD Minutes are a loyal image of meetings, but do not cover every comma, that's true. 00:10:43 pnunn I tend to agree.. it does take a LONG time to get much done on IRC. However I do see egal's point. 00:11:11 alex i find talking is nice for informal talk, but official things are written. in order to have easily written minutes an easy log of what was said is necessary. to prove minutes are correct, easy log is required as well. 00:11:37 egal if there will be a recording (and a chat parallel to the meeting) i feel fine ... 00:12:09 pnunn I know something like zoom can record the session (I know zoom isn't an option) so an open source alternative could do that.. but it would be a slow process to go back through that to come up with minutes etc. 00:12:35 bdmc There is also the issue of multiple talking at once. 00:12:44 ( multiple people talking ) 00:13:00 egal currently i'm online while being in my bed ... my girlfried sleeping next to me ... and guests in other rooms ... so i currently could listen, but not talk during the meeting 00:13:24 FD You are not married ? 00:13:36 Just kidding. 00:13:49 egal ;-) 00:14:08 pnunn I would have similar issues egal as I can do this without waking the entire house. But its time they were up anyway :) 00:14:12 bdmc And Dirk brings up another important point. It is now well after midnight in Central Europe, so can we move this to Board Private, and try to work out a compromise? 00:14:35 egal (wouldn't change the situaton ... as there are always envrionments, where you can't talk, but use IRC or any other messenger) 00:14:52 alex yup @ egal 00:15:12 FD Of course, let's stop there. 00:15:12 ted Speaking of time... I'm off to bed now! 00:15:29 * ted waves goodbye. 00:15:38 egal i simply have to close me notebook ... ;-) 00:15:47 when will the next meetig take place= 00:16:00 bdmc According to the Chart that Etienne has in the Agenda, our next meeting is on the 2nd of May. 00:16:06 Etienne One last question: As this meeting was resheduled, the next is in one week - OK or would it be better in 2 weeks? (2 or 9 may 2019) 00:16:12 ← ted has quit (Client exited) 00:16:47 bdmc I wouldn't mind the 2nd. What about everybody else? 00:17:09 Peter 9 would be better for me 00:17:18 pnunn Two would suite me better at the moment. But given how reliable I've been getting to them don't let that change the date. 00:17:53 bdmc Any more votes? 00:18:17 Etienne In two weeks, we can go further... 00:19:07 bdmc All right. Let's say the 9th of May, and if pnunn can make it, all the better. 00:19:15 FD Ok. 00:19:54 bdmc Well, good night, or perhaps good morning, All! I hereby declare this meeting concluded. 00:20:21 Peter Goodbye from the beach 00:20:28 bdmc B-) 00:20:29 egal good night everybody ... ;-) 00:20:32 ← Peter has quit (Quit: Leaving) 00:20:47 FD Goof morning every others ! 00:20:52 alex good night :) 00:20:57 and good morning 00:20:58 pnunn Good night all. 00:21:04 Etienne Thank you and good bye.