1 19:04 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> hello all together
   2 19:04 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> good evening to all
   3 19:04 #board-meeting: <@felix> hi
   4 19:04 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Godd Evening
   5 19:05 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Good Evening
   6 19:05 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I hereby open the extraordinary board meeting
   7 19:05 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> at first I have to say that Jueregen is not able to participate in time because he is involved in some incident.
   8 19:06 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> we are 4 board members
   9 19:07 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> so we have a quorum
  10 19:08 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.1 Chair opens the Committee Meeting
  11 19:08 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.2 Accept the minutes from the last meeting. 
  12 19:09 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> are there any comments?
  13 19:09 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> No
  14 19:09 -!- Q [BH@dslb-088-072-087-127.088.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #board-meeting
  15 19:09 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I move to accept the minutes
  16 19:09 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> second & aye
  17 19:09 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
  18 19:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> aye
  19 19:10 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> aye
  20 19:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> motion CARRIED
  21 19:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Chair asks whether cacert-board-private maillist includes any items that need to be disclosed to Members. 
  22 19:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> sorry
  23 19:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.3 Who is making minutes? 
  24 19:11 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I will do them
  25 19:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> thank you, Marcus
  26 19:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.4 Chair asks whether cacert-board-private maillist includes any items that need to be disclosed to Members.
  27 19:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> NO
  28 19:12 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> nothing to my knowledge
  29 19:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.5 Chair asks whether cacert-board maillist includes any business items that aren't on the agenda yet.
  30 19:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> YES
  31 19:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I send an email to board to put the issue "Etienne's email: call for SGM" on the agenda
  32 19:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> and I put it on the agenda
  33 19:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I hae to ask if you all agree
  34 19:14 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> aye
  35 19:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> The mail from Enteienn arrivred on Tuesday morning, so we have to take it as late business.
  36 19:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> aye
  37 19:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> second & aye
  38 19:15 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
  39 19:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> OK, late business
  40 19:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I wrote a send topic in my email.
  41 19:17 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We should make a final statement that the former board refused up to today the handover of documents.
  42 19:18 #board-meeting: <@felix> (I think we got confused. Those to items were in a mail on board-private.)
  43 19:19 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> second & aye
  44 19:19 #board-meeting: <@felix> but I agree to put also this second Item on today's agenda
  45 19:19 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We know that e.g. Dirk, being the former president, got the key persons list and refused to handover.
  46 19:20 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> aye
  47 19:20 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> OK, late business
  48 19:21 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I updated the agenda
  49 19:21 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> thank you.
  50 19:21 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.6 Chair introduces the URL of action items to the meeting, and asks for discussion.
  51 19:22 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> nothing new here
  52 19:22 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> The root re-sign was succesfully done on  2016-03-12 https://blog.cacert.org/2016/03/successful-root-re-sign/
  53 19:23 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We are now waiting for the software review to be done.
  54 19:23 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2. Businesses 
  55 19:24 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.1 Discussion of the replies of Ian G to the hearing following the motion m20160228.3 "Move to enter the procedure following rule 12 of the statutes of CAcert Inc. to expell Ian G from CAcert Inc." 
  56 19:24 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> first question to the floor
  57 19:24 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> if Ian Grigg is present please change your name to your full name. Thank You.
  58 19:28 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian Grigg is not present.
  59 19:28 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Is this right?
  60 19:28 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I do not see his name
  61 19:29 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> An invitation for this board meeting was sent to Ian on 2016-03-20 20:42 UTC
  62 19:29 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> If he should participate in this meeting at any later time he will get the chance to speak personally.
  63 19:29 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the story:
  64 19:30 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> During last board meeting a motion was made to enter into a procedure as described in § 12 of our statutes.
  65 19:31 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The motion said that we are going to expell Ian Grigg from CAcert Incorporated, if he continues to accuse board and board members by making false and defamatory statements.
  66 19:32 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We asked him to give an answer latest on 2016-03-20 23:59 UTC.
  67 19:32 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> There have been 2 emails from him.
  68 19:33 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> He continued his unfair playing and told us that we have to take the burden of proof. 
  69 19:34 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> His last email on Sunday night may be seen as an answer to the last board meeting.
  70 19:36 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Sunday night is meant as the time before 2016-03-20 23:59 UTC.
  71 19:43 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM>  In his emails he continues to promote his false ideas. He wrote that CAcert Inc. has no need in following the Association Regulation Act 2010.
  72 19:44 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In an email send on 2016-03-12 15:53 he said that there is no need to follow the regulation.
  73 19:46 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> What I see here is that if CAcert follows these comments we will loose very soon all acceptance of the community. We must work strictly on a base which is covered by the law.
  74 19:48 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The Office for Fair Trading, NSW, published on Monday, November 02, 2015 a document and wrote: cite
  75 19:48 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Incorporated associations enable  community  interest groups to develop and provide  services to the ir members in a manner which is consistent with the ir purpose and  objects  and as set out in their constitution. Their legal identity is provided by the  Associations Incorporation Act 2009.
  76 19:49 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I wrote this in an answer to Ian.
  77 19:49 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> for the records
  78 19:49 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the document is found here: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/la/latabdoc.nsf/0/2363f9197977f8bdca257f0000028d2f/$FILE/Associations%20Statutory%20Review.PDF
  79 19:53 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Another issue is a rule given inthe Association Regulation Act.
  80 19:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Rule 10 Resolution of disputes (3) writes:
  81 19:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The  Commercial  Arbitration  Act  1984   applies  to  any  such  dispute referred to arbitration
  82 19:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> This act references to the arbitration model of UNCITRAL.
  83 19:55 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the association regulation act is here
  84 19:55 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_reg/aia2009air20102010238l11j2010784.pdf
  85 19:56 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the UNCITRAL model of arbitration is found here: http://www.uncitral.org/pdf/english/texts/arbitration/ml-arb/07-86998_Ebook.pdf
  86 19:58 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In my opinion we have to manage being in line with UNCITRAL by several reasons:
  87 19:58 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> There are many countries which ratified an arbitration act and reference to UNCITRAL, e.g. Germany, Aaustria and NSW!
  88 20:00 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> These acts require that an external arbitration tribunal and its sentences are only valid if the arbitration tribunal follows the rules as laid out in the act of those countries.
  89 20:01 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In my opinion CAcert must comply with the domestic law of the hosting country which is NSW, and must comply with UNCITRAL model of arbitration to survive!
  90 20:06 -!- groggy [GY@dslb-088-072-087-127.088.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #board-meeting
  91 20:06 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Let's see the background of CAcert Incorporated.
  92 20:06 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> https://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/By-Laws/TradeOffice_AGM2007Reports_4392_001-Nov2007.pdf
  93 20:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In a previous  boardmeeting we cited a lot of Ian's emails, e.g. ""Elephant #1. The people who control the board now have (a) conducted a long-running campaign against Arbitration.""
  94 20:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We gave a comment that this statement is false. 
  95 20:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> As I pointed out we have to make corrections to survive.
  96 20:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian: CAcert is now in deadly embrace. Arbitration is no longer in effect, ...
  97 20:15 -!- katzazi [smuxi@82.113.106.237] has joined #board-meeting
  98 20:15 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> If Ian sees this differently he had time enough to bring arguments to proof this.
  99 20:17 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian: "Elephant #4. Because the board has breached, the SGM has to replace the board."
 100 20:18 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Once again, a false statement and based on this statement some "conclusion".
 101 20:19 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian never took the burden of proof.
 102 20:19 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> From my point of view Ian did not answer the questions nor did he proof his accusations. He just continued his false statements.
 103 20:19 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian: "There is no permission for the board to conduct a star chamber. This is anathema to our culture."
 104 20:20 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> There is no star chamber!
 105 20:21 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Their order is to check if board acts in line with the law and our policies. And they should give advice to board if some or all of the actions in question *must* be tolerated in the meaning of free speech.
 106 20:25 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We want to know if we are acting properly. In that sense the commission can be seen as part of our audit.
 107 20:30 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Another issue is that Ian (as well as others) are posting to various different mailinglists, possibly with the intent of upsetting or manipulating people.
 108 20:38 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Last issue: Ian ignores consequently the fact that I, Reinhard Mutz, accused ian Grigg during the board meeting on 2016-02-28. I presented the complaints.
 109 20:40 -!- katzazi [smuxi@89.204.155.89] has joined #board-meeting
 110 20:43 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Currently he always addresses all five European members of the board as acting along a pre-decided storybook.
 111 20:44 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> This assumption is wrong.
 112 20:44 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> My trust in Ian Grigg came to a total breakdown.
 113 20:45 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> my question to baord: are there any questions/comments?
 114 20:46 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Not from me
 115 20:47 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> Nothing more as I said before.
 116 20:49 #board-meeting: <@felix> I do not have any comments on that.
 117 20:50 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> If Ian Grigg is present on the floor please change your nick to your full name.
 118 20:52 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian Grigg is not present.
 119 20:52 #board-meeting: <@felix> I don't see him either.
 120 20:52 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I cannot see him either.
 121 20:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I move to expell Ian Grigg from membership of CAcert Incorporated.
 122 20:54 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> second & aye
 123 20:54 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> aye
 124 20:55 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
 125 20:56 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I put it into our motion system.
 126 20:59 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The motion system will give an enddate. After that date secretary has to write the result to all involved parties. In case of the motion is CARRIED Ian is to be informed. He has the right for appeal. Please see rule 13 of our statutes.
 127 21:00 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> next topic
 128 21:00 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.2 Late business
 129 21:01 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.2.1 Discussion about the email from Etienne Ruedin, subject "Invitation: CAcert SGM, Saturday, 9th of April 2016 at 12:00h UTC".
 130 21:03 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> There are a lot of failures, e.g. missing the formal requirements of 4 supporters who *must* sign the agenda and send it to secretary (No. 26 (3) d of the stautes). Further we have agreed by motion to hold this SGM on April 10th. We comply with our statutes and the regulation act where is said that we have to convene such a meeting within one month after such request.
 131 21:05 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In regards to all errors and failures board always has the chance to call a SGM. It is my wish to clarify the current situation as early as possible. But I cannot accept that these guys always argue that we persistently breach our rules and statutes. Just to remember: it is Ian Grigg who made the community to believe that CAcert Incorporated may deliberately ignore the Association Regulation Act 2010.
 132 21:07 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I propose to help etienne and others to get the SGM hold on April 10th as decided by board.
 133 21:08 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> aye
 134 21:08 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> second
 135 21:08 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
 136 21:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> So secretary will send out the agenda in time.
 137 21:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> next topic
 138 21:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.2.2 final statement that the former board refused up to today the handover of documents 
 139 21:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Dirk got the Key Persons List and refuses to hand it over to us. Remember his mail that he received this list on a private communication channel.
 140 21:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The only handover was done done by the former treasurer. For my best knowledge there are still a few procedures to clarify.
 141 21:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The task of handover of the Key Persons List is outstanding.
 142 21:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> That is for the records.
 143 21:14 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> ack
 144 21:14 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Ack
 145 21:14 #board-meeting: <@felix> ack
 146 21:14 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> I have to go.  Sorry. Good bye
 147 21:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> bye
 148 21:15 -!- StefanT [smuxi@p5B3BBEAA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #board-meeting []
 149 21:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> Sorry I have to leave now. It is a pity that Ian did not show up.. 
 150 21:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> bye
 151 21:15 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> we lost a quorum.
 152 21:15 #board-meeting: <@felix> Sorry, I also have to leave... so bye
 153 21:15 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I close hereby the meeting.
 154 21:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Thanks to the auditorium for taking part.
 155 21:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> good bye