- Case Number: a20091231.2
- Status: closed
- Claimants: Dominik George
- Respondents: Georgios Kargiotakis
Case Manager: MartinGummi
- Date of arbitration start: 2010-09-22
- Date of ruling: 2010-09-26
- Case closed: 2010-09-26
- Complaint: name difference between ID doc and account
- Relief: TBD
Before: Arbitrator UlrichSchroeter (A), Respondent: Georgios Kargiotakis (R), Claimant: Dominik George (C), Case: a20091231.2
2009-12-31 (UlrichSchroeter): added to wiki, request for CM / A
- 2010-01-11 (CM): i'll take this as CM
- 2010-08-29 (A): I'll take care about this case
- 2010-08-30 (A): Initmailing with CCA / DRP acceptance req sent to (C), (R)
- 2010-08-30 (A): (Support): please provide me with the list of assurances received and the full names seperated in fields on (R)'s account
- 2010-08-30 (C): PoV allready declared in dispute filing
- 2010-08-30 (Support): [s20100830.58] sent list of assurances received by the account of (R), also name details in account
- 2010-09-11 (A): send reminder about CCA / DRP acceptance to (R)
- 2010-09-22 (A): send reminder #2 about CCA / DRP acceptance to (R)
- 2010-09-22 (R): accepts CCA / DRP under this arbitration. Sends his PoV
- 2010-09-23 (A): requesting reliable sources, which can document and confirm (R)'s statement
- 2010-09-23 (R): sends links of public sources that relates to this dispute case
2010-09-23 (A): question to (R): exists other known name variations on Latin -> Greek -> Latin translations/transliterations ? so that this can be identified as a common known Greek givenname problem ?
2010-09-23 (R): sends list with other known name variations on Latin -> Greek -> Latin
- 5 assurances received, 3 before 04/2008, 2 in 12/2009
- from AP 2.2 Multiple Names and variations
Examples of variations include - married names - doesn't match to this case - variations of initials of first or middle names, - doesn't match to this case - abbreviations of a first name, - may possibly match to this case - different language or country variations, - may match to this case - and transliterations of characters in a name. - doesn't match to this case
- (R)'s statement:
- "but George is the English translation of the name."
- Greek name variations
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Greek-2004/name-translation-7.htm (probably charset Greek-1253)
search for "Georgios" http://en.allexperts.com/q/Greek-2004/2008/5/greek-names.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_%28given_name%29 Wikipedia: George Givenname, also "George" name variations in different countries
- "George, from the Ancient Greek γεωργός (geōrgos), "farmer" or "earth-worker", which became a name in Greek: Γεώργιος (Geōrgios)"
- So english wikipedia directly matches George to Γεώργιος (my greek name which is on my ID).
- "Το Γεώργιος είναι ένα από τα πιο συνηθισμένα αντρικά ονόματα της Ελληνικής γλώσσας. Χρησιμοποιείται συνήθως στη νεοελληνική μορφή Γιώργος."
- "Γεώργιος is one of the most common male names of the Greek language. It is commonly used in the modern greek form of Γιώργος"
- Greek wikipedia says that Γεώργιος and Γιώργος is the same name. It also says that the english translation of Γεώργιος/Γιώργος is George.
- Statement by (R):
- IMHO every Greek on cacert who is named Γεώργιος/Γιώργος should be allowed to have his name as either Georgios or George.
Practice On IdChecking (comment)
"The thing is that the convention of the assurers was quite variable in the old days and there were some very dogmatic people and a lot of world travellers who could see the problems with the dogma. Another avenue in variations is the subsidiary policies under AP which could conceivably vary the practice of one govt.-issued photo Id. Hence, that old thought-experiment about the Catholic Church Papa. Hence, the Assurance Statement goes some distance to detune or soften the need for pure identity documents ... as long as we can reliably get the guy to Arbitration, the precise Name and Documents matter less. "
"... as long as we can reliably get the guy to Arbitration ..." => we've got ...
- (R): Other known Greek Givenname variations
Ιωάννης/Γιάννης -> Ioannis/Giannis/John
Μιχαήλ/Μιχάλης -> Michael/Michalis
Ηρακλής -> Iraklis/Hercules
Θεόδωρος -> Theodoros/Theodore
Αλέξανδρος -> Alexandros/Alexander
- and I am sure there are many more examples...Γεώργιος and Ιωάννης are the two most common greek male names though.
I'm conducted in ruling to this case by the precedents case a20090618.12 by either Introduction to the case and also by the ruling. So therefor I hereby rule, that it is not illegal for someone that could identify himself by official documents with a givenname "Georgios" to keep a givenname of "George" in his CAcert account and I hereby confirm that the assurance can be finished by the claimant because the account owner does not want the givenname changed and I consider it is covered by the assurance policy section 2.2 as a legal language or country variation on Greek givennames.
The Assurance Statement (AP 1.1) makes the following 5 claims about a person:
- The person is a bona fide Member. In other words, the person is a member of the CAcert Community as defined by the CAcert Community Agreement (CCA);
- this can be achieved
- The Member has a (login) account with CAcert's on-line registration and service system;
- this can be achieved
- The Member can be determined from any CAcert certificate issued by the Account;
- this can be achieved
- The Member is bound into CAcert's Arbitration as defined by the CAcert Community Agreement;
- this can be achieved, as seen in this arbitration
- Some personal details of the Member are known to CAcert: the individual Name(s), primary and other listed individual email address(es), secondary distinguishing feature (e.g. DoB).
- this can be achieved. There exists resources on the internet, the givenname variation can be found to be a valid variation on a Greek givenname.
So this case givenname variation can be matched to AP 2.2 Multiple Names and variations.
As PracticeOnNames doesn't covered this case yet doesn't imply that this variation doesn't exists. PracticeOnNames is a living practice document, that will be updated continously as new informations arrive, new exceptions comes to knowledge of Assurance Area. The common Dutch givenname variation has been handled after this dispute filing has started. So claimants claim was correct at the time writing dispute filing in relation to existing and written documents. But the overall alignments has moved since pushing AP to Community back in spring 2009 and the strict dogma on full match of names against ID docs has been shown to be inpractibel in a planet world not limited to central Europe. I consider to also add the Greek givenname variations onto the PracticeOnNames Known country variations list.
Frankfurt/Main, September 26, 2010
- 2010-09-26 (A): ruling sent out to (C), (R), (CM). No execution order needed. Case closed.
Post Arbitration Notes
- 2010-09-26 (C): response to ruling (statement, question regarding appeal)
2010-09-26 (A): answer to (C): Its up to you how you proceed in the Assurance over the respondent. Dispute Resolution Policy (DRP) outlines under point 3 3.3 Binding and Final and also 3.4 Re-opening the Case or Appeal
- 2010-09-26 (C): further statement about last email
- 2010-09-26 (A): statement of clarification for post arbitration note