- Case Number: a20091206.1
- Status: Closed
- Claimants: Werner Dworak (SE)
- Respondents: Sven D.
Case Manager: UlrichSchroeter
- Arbitrator: Lambert Hofstra
- Date of arbitration start: 2009-12-29
- Date of ruling: 2010-10-11
- Case closed: 2010-10-11
- Complaint: Dispute agains Sven D. on violating CCA
Dear Arbitration team, hereby i file a dispute against Sven D. <email anonymized>. He demanded a password reset which mail got lost over the change of the support team. He paid by Paypal. As no answer came, Sven didn't ask a second time and he didn't file a CAcert dispute but he files a Paypal dispute. So he violated the CCA and DRP. Please decide what to do. I agree to CCA, DRP and any other CAcert Policies and rules and abide to them. Regards, Werner
- Relief: TBD
Before: Arbitrator Lambert Hofstra (A), Respondent: Sven D. (R), Claimant: Werner Dworak (C), Case: a20091206.1
2009-12-06 (UlrichSchroeter): added this case to wiki, request for CM and A
- 2009-12-06 (C): accepts CCA / DRP by dispute filing
- 2009-12-06 (CM): i'll take care about this case as CM
- 2009-12-06 (A): i'll take care about this case as A
- 2009-12-07 (CM): sent out CCA / DRP acceptance request to (R)
- 2009-12-07 (CM): sent out request to outline viewpoint to (R)
- 2009-12-07 (Triage): missing mail found in support archive folder
- 2009-12-07 (CM): request to support to forward missing mail to (A)
- 2009-12-08 (A): first message from R. I have asked Support to first resolve the initial issue (password reset)
- 2009-12-09 (A): Received confirmation that the initial issue has been solved, and the Paypal dispute has been canceled.
- 2009-12-14 (A): No further reply received from R, with confirmation of CCA and DRP acceptance. I've asked him in another email to get back to us.
- 2009-12-19 (CM): No further reply received from (R) with confirmation of CCA and DRP acceptance. (A)'s email from 2009-12-14 translated to German and sent to (R).
- 2009-12-29 (A) Final request to (R) to accept the CCA and DRP. Received a response that (R) accepts the CCA and DRP
- 2009-12-30 (A) Exchanged a few emails with (R). Received explanation why (R) used the Paypal system instead of the CAcert dispute system
2009-12-30 Explanation of R: I lost my password. I checked the CAcert web site and found the following document: http://wiki.cacert.org/FAQ/LostPasswordOrAccount. This web page mentions: "Go to https://www.cacert.org/index.php?id=5 and pay US$15. You can either use your normal Paypal Account or pay by credit card. Then contact firstname.lastname@example.org and explain your situation."
This I did, but I got no response. I did not see a link to the dispute system in the previous Wiki page or in an obvious place on the web site. I also did not see anything regarding disputes on http://wiki.cacert.org/FAQ. I then decided to use the Paypal dispute system, because I paid through Paypal. I did not know that this was against the community rules in the CCA and DRP.
To be honest, I still don't know how to open a dispute at CAcert myself. It is also not on http://www.cacert.org/index.php?lang=de_DE
- 2010-02-22 (CM): requesting progress report from (A)
- 2010-07-28 (CM): requesting progress report from (A)
- 2010-08-24 (CM): requesting progress report from (A) (req#3)
- 2010-09-08 (CM): requesting progress report from (A) (req#4)
- 2010-10-06 (CM): requesting progress report from (A) (req#5) with deadline until Oct 20th, 2010, with next step notification to board-private list
- 2010-10-06 (CM): irc chat with (A). Agreed to find a working solution till end of this week (Mon Oct 11th)
- 2010-10-11 (A) Ruling added
2009-09-13 Board motion: Paypal Info for support Approved 2009-09-17 00:00:03 UTC
2009-10-15 Arbitration exec request to support of case a20090618.11, executed 2009-10-20 by GR
- ~2009-10-20 GR reports to U60: Support backlog of 2 weeks
2009-10-21 Arbitration exec request to support of case a20090908.1, executed 2009-11-11 (!), also several other cases by AM
- 2009-11-10 AM steps in for support temporarely (first forward of new disputes since 2009-10-20 GR last actions)
2009-11-13 The actual state about Support is ... report by (U60)
2009-11-15 Board meeting Nov 15th 09 2.1. Arbitration / Support Blockages
2009-11-17 Iang steps in as SE temporarely, first actions taken, see email@example.com
2009-11-22 Board meeting Nov 22th 09 (continued)
2009-11-24 firstname.lastname@example.org is running about since Nov 24th 2009
- 2009-11-27 Werner starts working as SE
irc channel log Mon Dec 7th 2009
(17:34:35) NEOatNHNG: Werner: about the paypal thingie: the mail is in the archive folder if you use thunderbird just search for the email address of the guy in question (17:36:06) NEOatNHNG: it's subject: "Lost Account and password" and date 2009-11-12 14:21
Link to the dispute system on the CAcert website (https://secure.cacert.org/disputes.php?id=0):
Disputes and Abuse Reporting Please select the most appropriate section to report your problem. Disputes If you want to dispute who has control of your email address or domain, select 'Dispute Email' or 'Dispute Domain' on the right hand side. Abuses If you would like to report an abuse of our certificates that breaches our policies please select the Abuse menu on the right.
R filed a dispute through Paypal, which is the normal approach in case seller (here CAcert) is not providing the agreed service after a payment made through Paypal. However, this was not a generic buyer/seller issue, but a case where both buyer (R) and seller (C) are member of CAcert, and have a dispute regarding a CAcert service. As a result the CCA applies, and this dispute should be handled through CAcert arbitration. R claimed in his defense that he did not know how to file a dispute. The suggested link on the web site (https://secure.cacert.org/disputes.php?id=0) is not a generic dispute filing page, but only addresses the dispute of an email address or a domain name, and both are not relevant in this particular case. Therefore I rule:
- R should have used the CAcert arbitration system to resolve his issue. However, since he was very cooperative once informed, he will not be fined on this.
- CAcert must update the web page on disputes, and include an explanation how to file a dispute
2010-10-11 (CM): bug# 879 filed to bugs.cacert.org for handling by Software-Assessment team, to update spotted web page
- 2010-10-11 (CM): Ruling sent to (C), (R) in this case
- 2010-10-11 (CM): Case closed.